CK's tantrum in perspective
- Thread starter sergio
- Start date
cbphoto said:
First sorry to disappoint you but I'm not, and on the second point why I'll want to do that? if I enter in discussions here is to let you know not to be influenced negatively for what your are reading in those newspapers, please try to research for a more balanced point of view. That's all I'm aiming for nothing more nothing less.
Ufff....
1) INDEC: yes, they lied. But we were saved of bankrupcy by that.All that money was used to ameliorate poverty, in a clientelistic way, but it was DONE. Less people died, more people had a better life. We lied to the pirates, and we won. I don´t know how many times I will tell this story. In the short term we were hugely benefited by this move. The long term... we have China, which is not slowing down for at least a decade.
2) Foreign investment has been detrimental for the Argentinian economy in the near past. More money did go out that came in, you would not expect a foregin company to keep its profits inside Argentina,don´t you? If they created jobs or brought technology to the country we can gain something, but witness Aerolineas, Telefonica, Telecom, trains, etc etc etc. We lost jobs and money because of these foreign investors.
Not gonna happen because people now have jobs and eat. Inflation affects them, but they now HAVE an income to be affected! In 1995-2001 they were unemployed, entire families living from one depreciated income (inflation in 1991-2001 was 60% for all the period if I remember correctly,so people lost more than half their wages in a 25-50% unemployment environment, according to social class). The suburban trains are full of people going to work. The highways are chocked full of new cars. Money is on the streets. The vacation spots are full every season.
3) Computers: I travelled in Europe and SE Asia. A generic computer bought in Galeria Jardin costs more or less the same (really,try to buy a computer in France). Apple shiny things cost more in Argentina. Buy generic. Yep, plasma and LCDs are more expensive. I don´t really care, a generic Pentium has the same educational uses than an state-of-the-art MacBook, it is only less shiny. Not every country must be gadget-consumption based as the US. If we get money from middle-high class people trying to import an I-Pad, it is ok with me. But again, I am a "socialist"
"6-7-8" is a government sponsored program, and it has an agenda, but it is done with some journalism involved. "La Nacion" feels like an arm of the CIA right now, and almost does not involve journalism, other than copy/past cables and tweaking everything, every little snippet of info, including outright lies (and it is every day done like that,it is in some way amazing how they do it).
Grondona is a very shady character that openly supported mass murder in the past, and actively helped people now in prison for crimes against humanity. You would never take seriously somebody that helped Milosevic or Pol Pot to do what they did, don´t you? The same applies to Grondona.
The government does not use "patotas". The "loyal" unions (Moyano) have patotas, the opposition unions (Barrionuevo) have patotas, Macri has patotas (Boca Juniors plus the unit that beats homeless people on the streets south of the city),Duhalde has patotas, and some intendentes of the districts surrounding Buenos Aires have patotas (Merlo, Moreno, etc). K. has a specific policy (very critiziced by La Nacion) of avoiding repression. Any case of violence by any government supporter will be wildly over-reported in the news (as in the 2008´s countryside patronal lockdown manifestations). The idea of the government sending patotas to silence you has the same credibility of Obama´s "death panels".
1) INDEC: yes, they lied. But we were saved of bankrupcy by that.All that money was used to ameliorate poverty, in a clientelistic way, but it was DONE. Less people died, more people had a better life. We lied to the pirates, and we won. I don´t know how many times I will tell this story. In the short term we were hugely benefited by this move. The long term... we have China, which is not slowing down for at least a decade.
2) Foreign investment has been detrimental for the Argentinian economy in the near past. More money did go out that came in, you would not expect a foregin company to keep its profits inside Argentina,don´t you? If they created jobs or brought technology to the country we can gain something, but witness Aerolineas, Telefonica, Telecom, trains, etc etc etc. We lost jobs and money because of these foreign investors.
Not gonna happen because people now have jobs and eat. Inflation affects them, but they now HAVE an income to be affected! In 1995-2001 they were unemployed, entire families living from one depreciated income (inflation in 1991-2001 was 60% for all the period if I remember correctly,so people lost more than half their wages in a 25-50% unemployment environment, according to social class). The suburban trains are full of people going to work. The highways are chocked full of new cars. Money is on the streets. The vacation spots are full every season.
3) Computers: I travelled in Europe and SE Asia. A generic computer bought in Galeria Jardin costs more or less the same (really,try to buy a computer in France). Apple shiny things cost more in Argentina. Buy generic. Yep, plasma and LCDs are more expensive. I don´t really care, a generic Pentium has the same educational uses than an state-of-the-art MacBook, it is only less shiny. Not every country must be gadget-consumption based as the US. If we get money from middle-high class people trying to import an I-Pad, it is ok with me. But again, I am a "socialist"
"6-7-8" is a government sponsored program, and it has an agenda, but it is done with some journalism involved. "La Nacion" feels like an arm of the CIA right now, and almost does not involve journalism, other than copy/past cables and tweaking everything, every little snippet of info, including outright lies (and it is every day done like that,it is in some way amazing how they do it).
Grondona is a very shady character that openly supported mass murder in the past, and actively helped people now in prison for crimes against humanity. You would never take seriously somebody that helped Milosevic or Pol Pot to do what they did, don´t you? The same applies to Grondona.
The government does not use "patotas". The "loyal" unions (Moyano) have patotas, the opposition unions (Barrionuevo) have patotas, Macri has patotas (Boca Juniors plus the unit that beats homeless people on the streets south of the city),Duhalde has patotas, and some intendentes of the districts surrounding Buenos Aires have patotas (Merlo, Moreno, etc). K. has a specific policy (very critiziced by La Nacion) of avoiding repression. Any case of violence by any government supporter will be wildly over-reported in the news (as in the 2008´s countryside patronal lockdown manifestations). The idea of the government sending patotas to silence you has the same credibility of Obama´s "death panels".
Well marksoc explained very well to the skeptical forum members what it's all about now it's after you to believe it or not, thanks Mark.
Tomorrow will continue the statements by the material seized from U.S.
Tomorrow will continue the statements by the material seized from U.S.
notebook.fix
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I could be old enough to be your Papa. And no, I NEVER read the Miami papers... and just cause I speak English it doesn't mean I don't understand what I see read & watch here every day.
Lucas, are you discriminating against those of us who have lived outside..I'm a bit tired of getting told to 'shut up'....we are citizens of this country by birth & yes we have other opinions too.
This attitude by some of my hermanos bugs me. Having witnessed what works & what doesn't work in other countries, all our experience & knowledge is quickly dismissed with those sweeping generalizations....."Oh you read to much Miami News"...or ..."your analysis of the country situation are distorted".
Lucas, with respect to you, I have to say that maybe you guys are still caught up in the same old victim mentality.."Oh it's those outsiders that feed you spoons of hate and misconception" always blaming foreigners for your shortcomings & misfortunes..... Listen to me -maybe...just maybe we the ones who have repatriated back here have seen other ways ........don't you think that there are other ways to do things?
Telling the truth is one of those better ways.
Lucas, are you discriminating against those of us who have lived outside..I'm a bit tired of getting told to 'shut up'....we are citizens of this country by birth & yes we have other opinions too.
This attitude by some of my hermanos bugs me. Having witnessed what works & what doesn't work in other countries, all our experience & knowledge is quickly dismissed with those sweeping generalizations....."Oh you read to much Miami News"...or ..."your analysis of the country situation are distorted".
Lucas, with respect to you, I have to say that maybe you guys are still caught up in the same old victim mentality.."Oh it's those outsiders that feed you spoons of hate and misconception" always blaming foreigners for your shortcomings & misfortunes..... Listen to me -maybe...just maybe we the ones who have repatriated back here have seen other ways ........don't you think that there are other ways to do things?
Telling the truth is one of those better ways.
Lucas said:
marksoc said:
I found this the most interesting sentence in the thread. It brings me back to the summer of 1986 and so many players' explanations of what happened on that patch of Mexican grass - or rather what happened about six and a half feet above it.
marksoc, I don't agree with your politics, but thanks for taking the time to explain your opinions.
Its always a bit weird sticking your nose into a discussion about a place that you haven't been. In my opinion, generally what ameliorates poverty are less people and more resources. Everything else is just re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic. So each country has choices, control population or get more efficient at exploiting and distributing wealth. Its that second part that seems to get most places into trouble.
Oh and really this tempest in a teapot is over a few undeclared gun barrels, really? Not even fully assembled weapons, but barrels. Methinks somebody doth protest a bit too much.
Oh and really this tempest in a teapot is over a few undeclared gun barrels, really? Not even fully assembled weapons, but barrels. Methinks somebody doth protest a bit too much.
notebook.fix said:
1) I don't think so.
2) I see now your point of view more clearly, on this subject I will say yes I think there are much better ways to do things particularly in this country, but not you nor I will be able to change the attitude of the people here, that will take a while to archive too many years of corruption and illegitimate governments supported in this country to be able to change all in a short time.
You lived for a 'x' period outside so you know there are better ways, but people here who never lived outside can't comprehend what its all about, it's impossible for them understand this, is like a blind person from birth, you can't explain to him/her what color is in a rose, you can tell them its red but see it is impossible so how possible will they know.
Now you know what different expectations exist overseas and that is your cross to carry, the main problem is that after so many years of decadence everybody wants a fix right now on things that no one attended for decades and that requires a stable and continuous government in power who cares about the country over anything else.
Is this government the one to fulfill those hopes? I don't know for sure, but I hope so, there is nothing there to fill the vacuum for a better future, look around, the ones who hang around are the ones who send this country to ruins I don't want them back...ever. I want people to think in the future to look ahead to have a project of nation and this government at the moment is the one and only who seems to be able to reach that.
The rest only wants to go back in time and continue with all the same, no future, no vision, no nothing.
Sure you are going to clash with your brothers, family and friends, you know why? because you saw the country from the distance and your perspectives changed.
Make no mistake this government is the best we have in the last 60 years even with its errors, better to take care of it because if we don't we are going back to the dark ages again.
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