Comparsion of supermarket prices Montevideo vs BA

[Ries]

Industrial Policy by the government, not population size, determine whether a country has successful manufacturing.
Switzerland, for example, is quite small- 8 million or so, smaller than greater BA. but they manufacture (and EXPORT) all kinds of things, because the national Industrial Policy is set up to encourage that.
The USA has over 330 million people- and yet more shoes are manufactured in Argentina. I can buy all kinds of things Industria Argentina (and I do) that are not made in the USA anymore. Cheap glass tumblers, affordable well designed eyeglasses frames, cast iron dutch ovens, cotton work clothes, stainless tableware, hand tools, yarn, fabric and thread, nails, screws and bolts, grifferia (bathroom fittings) builders hardware like door knobs or window latches, small gas stoves- I have bought all of those things made here, and am able to find almost none of them made in the USA. Finding a simple thing like an 8mm wrench made in the USA is almost impossible. I have 5 hardware stores within a few blocks in BA that will sell me one for less than I would pay for a made in China version at Home Depot.
It has to do with intention, laws, and government support.

 

[Quilombo]

Most Canadians are too polite to refute such utter nonsense made by our Yankee neighbours to the south. No one in Canada puts their wealth or house at risk if their health is at risk. But I am off topic (grocery prices compared between here and Montevideo), so I'll keep my rebuttal short. And as an LGBTQ person, I feel much safer in Canada than most places in the United States.

I have a parent from each country, and having spent tons of time in both, including having lived in Toronto for years. I've always found the meme that Canadians are super polite different from my personal reality; mention indigenous peoples' rights, immigrants, LGBT people, Francophone Canadians, etc. and suburban Ontario turns into Alabama real fast.

I haven't noticed any difference between Canadians and Americans from Upstate New York or Washington or Michigan, whether cultural or in terms of politeness, it's the same people. Now, that being said, as a gay guy, I sure as shit would have preferred some rude Americans to the "polite Canadians" that called me the F slur/watched and said nothing on the 84 Sheppard the last time I was in Toronto, and I'm sure trans kids in Saskatchewan and New Brunswick would say they increasingly feel like they're living in shithole Southern States, which, to be fair, I think could be said about both Provinces independent of their homophobic/transphobic legislation.

In CABA/GBA we're more likely to be robbed than hatecrimed, so in a perverse way it's kind of a testament to Argentine tolerance.

 

[Reply Guy]

I didn't say population size is the determinant factor of manufacturing. It plays a significant large part. You bring up Switzerland which has almost 3x the population size of Uruguay and there are a lot of factors that go into why Switzerland is a wealthier country than Uruguay. It's just not industrial policy.

All the items you mention are low value. It's great that Argentina manufactures screws, yarn, and cheap glasses but that doesn't add much value to the economy. What the US manufactures tends to be much more high value items.

You tout the peronist model yet everything in Argentina is very expensive for residents, it's been a country with very little growth, high poverty, and low development. I don't see it as a model to admire.

 

[ArgentinaVet]

Nonetheless, you have not addressed, at all, why, exactly, Uruguay is so much more expensive than Argentina.
I believe there is a supportable argument that one of the major reasons is that Argentina has a manufacturing base, where cars, steel, machinery, electrical devices, garments, textiles, and much more is made, and, to some degree, exported.
I also believe that its pretty indisputable, that, regardless of whether or not the most recent president was racist or not, Peron, himself, in the 1940s, placed into law policies supporting Argentine industry.
You can like them or hate them, but the fact remains that he felt it important that Argentina made, domestically, jet planes, trucks, cars and buses, steel, machinery, and hundreds of other products, and he instituted a system or tariffs, duties, quotas, subsidies, price supports, nationalized industries, and government programs that made that happen.
Uruguay did not do that.
I think it helps explain the difference between the two countries.

What you are missing here is when Argentina does not have draconian currency controls (and thus a parallel currency market) it is NOT all that much cheaper than Uruguay. The members of this forum have become accustomed to the politically caused distortions that are currency controls but that is not the equilibrium or sustainable state of being of the Argentine economy.

 

[antipodean]

Industrial Policy by the government, not population size, determine whether a country has successful manufacturing.
Switzerland, for example, is quite small- 8 million or so, smaller than greater BA. but they manufacture (and EXPORT) all kinds of things, because the national Industrial Policy is set up to encourage that.

Switzerland is in the heart of Europe, which as a bloc is one of the world's largest markets. Uruguay is surrounded by two protectionist and somewhat closed economies with strong local manufacturing to compete with. It is miles away from the nearest "free" markets of scale without easy transport links or infrastructure.

Swiss industrial policy is simply one of a free and open market.
Switzerland is also one of the most neo-liberal countries (ranked number 2 in terms of economic freedom, after Singapore) and it fully embraces the free market.
The Swiss state does not help Swiss manufacturers other than literally open doors to other markets by opening their own doors. The capital and skill of Swiss manufacturers and their global customers help Swiss manufacturers, punto final.

It seems pro-local manufacturing posters owe a lot to the free market after all... and if you want to talk about an expensive country (as per the original subject of this thread) then you can't get much more expensive than Switzerland complete with its thriving local manufacturing industry!

 

[joftoronto]

I have a parent from each country, and having spent tons of time in both, including having lived in Toronto for years. I've always found the meme that Canadians are super polite different from my personal reality; mention indigenous peoples' rights, immigrants, LGBT people, Francophone Canadians, etc. and suburban Ontario turns into Alabama real fast.

I haven't noticed any difference between Canadians and Americans from Upstate New York or Washington or Michigan, whether cultural or in terms of politeness, it's the same people. Now, that being said, as a gay guy, I sure as shit would have preferred some rude Americans to the "polite Canadians" that called me the F slur/watched and said nothing on the 84 Sheppard the last time I was in Toronto, and I'm sure trans kids in Saskatchewan and New Brunswick would say they increasingly feel like they're living in shithole Southern States, which, to be fair, I think could be said about both Provinces independent of their homophobic/transphobic legislation.

In CABA/GBA we're more likely to be robbed than hatecrimed, so in a perverse way it's kind of a testament to Argentine tolerance.

You conclude with a straw man argument. I never raised the level of tolerance/acceptance in BA vis a vis Canada. Your observations are your generalizations stated from your own personal experience. You should make that clear. I have lived in Toronto as well as suburban and rural parts of two provinces and although there is homophobia, I have never experienced hate crimes in any area that I have lived, I have lived as an openly gay man all my life in all settings. So I don't think it fair for you to generalize your experience to all Canadians, be they living in Toronto or semi rural areas. I can't speak for trans kids but we have 2 governments (Alberta and NB) that have tried to introduce legislation as many US states have targetting trans kids. However, our Charter of Rights and Freedoms and human rights code guarantees that if passed, this legislation will be overturned as gender identity is an enumerated ground of discrimination protected by human rights law and court decisions in Canada. And what I have never feared in Canada is going to a LGTBQ nightclub or venue and fearing an Orlanda Pulse nightclub style shooting or the more recent occurrence in Nevada. Gun crime is not absent from Canada but if that makes us more "boring" than as compared to what happened across the border in Buffalo only a year ago, I will gladly take that form of boredom to the excitement you and your community endure. Nor did you address the very real existential difference between the Canadian and US style health care systems which I guess, makes our life more boring again to that of people in the US who may lose their house if a loved one faces prolonged illness and/or cancer treatment without adequate health insurance. Again this is off topic but I have relations in both Texas and California (urban areas of both states) and culturally there is a vast difference between their values and those of my family, despite the close blood relations. Again this cannot be generalized to all Americans, it is my personal observations, as were your statements.

 

[on the brink]

As far as I remember Uruguay was more expensive than Argentina - used to be about 20% more, instead of the 200% it currently is.

At this time, Montevideo has the lowest prices, while both the Punta del Este area and the rest of the "ïnterior" are far more expensive. Colonia Department's prices are so high that many Coloniensis shop in Montevideo stores for everything from groceries to house paint. Even after shipping fees, it is cheaper.

 

[Quilombo]

You conclude with a straw man argument...

I'll preface this by saying I won't respond further to prevent further derailing of this thread, so feel free to take the last word (this sounds more sarcastic/rude than I'm intending it to, I just don't want to continue derailing the thread)

And as you said, you haven't experienced a hate crime in Canada, yet I have, and so have some of my friends, even in the most "liberal" city. I'm not suggesting they're rampant, or that the South is less homophobic than Canada, but rather this (false) idea, in my opinion, that Canada is much more welcoming or accepting or polite than the US is just false, especially if you're a minority, sexual or otherwise. Canadians tend to be self congratulatory, acting as if Canadian society is post-racist/post-homophobic when it's not, and there is still tons of work to be done, just like in the US, but at least most Americans don't pretend xenophobia isn't a problem in the US.

Regarding the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it doesn't mean anything when Provinces use the Not Withstanding Clause, which Saskatchewan's Premier Moe has stated he will do, if/when a Charter Violation is found. Now, in terms of feeling safe while being LGBT, it's a city vs rural/suburban thing for me personally, where I usually feel safer in the former, with the exception of Buenos Aires, where I generally safe being LGBT in both cities and suburban areas (rural still no), while I'd rather not tell people I am gay in say North Bay or the Florida Panhandle. Do I think something like Pulse is going to happen on Church Street? No, at least I hope not, but the TPS did ignore the Village literally yelling at them that there was a serial killer targeting gay men, and were proved right, so again, violence against LGBT people takes many different forms, yet are both present in Canada, and I would argue that if Canada had the gun proliferation that is present in the United States you'd see Pulse like events occur too.

Finally, regarding health care, that goes without saying. While Canada doesn't have universal healthcare as most people understand it (at least not in Ontario) since there are high co-pays, no pharmacare for most people, weak mental healthcare, limited dental/vision/medical device coverage, etc. it's still better than the situation most Americans find themselves in, though people like Doug Ford as pushing for the Americanization of healthcare, and Ontario's "polite" voters seem to be all for it, so we'll have to see how long this lasts.

 

[joftoronto]

I'll preface this by saying I won't respond further to prevent further derailing of this thread, so feel free to take the last word (this sounds more sarcastic/rude than I'm intending it to, I just don't want to continue derailing the thread)

And as you said, you haven't experienced a hate crime in Canada, yet I have, and so have some of my friends, even in the most "liberal" city. I'm not suggesting they're rampant, or that the South is less homophobic than Canada, but rather this (false) idea, in my opinion, that Canada is much more welcoming or accepting or polite than the US is just false, especially if you're a minority, sexual or otherwise. Canadians tend to be self congratulatory, acting as if Canadian society is post-racist/post-homophobic when it's not, and there is still tons of work to be done, just like in the US, but at least most Americans don't pretend xenophobia isn't a problem in the US.

Regarding the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it doesn't mean anything when Provinces use the Not Withstanding Clause, which Saskatchewan's Premier Moe has stated he will do, if/when a Charter Violation is found. Now, in terms of feeling safe while being LGBT, it's a city vs rural/suburban thing for me personally, where I usually feel safer in the former, with the exception of Buenos Aires, where I generally safe being LGBT in both cities and suburban areas (rural still no), while I'd rather not tell people I am gay in say North Bay or the Florida Panhandle. Do I think something like Pulse is going to happen on Church Street? No, at least I hope not, but the TPS did ignore the Village literally yelling at them that there was a serial killer targeting gay men, and were proved right, so again, violence against LGBT people takes many different forms, yet are both present in Canada, and I would argue that if Canada had the gun proliferation that is present in the United States you'd see Pulse like events occur too.

Finally, regarding health care, that goes without saying. While Canada doesn't have universal healthcare as most people understand it (at least not in Ontario) since there are high co-pays, no pharmacare for most people, weak mental healthcare, limited dental/vision/medical device coverage, etc. it's still better than the situation most Americans find themselves in, though people like Doug Ford as pushing for the Americanization of healthcare, and Ontario's "polite" voters seem to be all for it, so we'll have to see how long this lasts.

Obviously I can only speak for myself, and you can only speak for yourself. You raise some fair points about the notwithstanding clause but we can agree to disagree on many. This Canadian notes that this US citizen with some connection to Canada, and a better knowledge than most US citizens would have of Canada, I will grant you that, insists on making broad generalizations that are generally derogatory to whole swaths of Canada and Canadians. I certainly have my opinions which would probably cast US society unfavorably, however, I would not invoke them in a BA expats thread about food prices as between Montevideo and BA. In no place did I argue that Canadian society was post-racial or free of homophobia. What I do refrain from is making insulting comments with respect to other countries as a metaphor for an argument specific to this forum. If you would like to open a thread on the issue of Canadian versus US society on a whole host of issues, I will leave it up to you. And I'll be most willing to engage and debate you with respect, as a Canadian, your "boring, more expensive, if more stable version of the larger neighbor, that's basically the same country separated by a river/49th Parallel", with an insistence that we are not essentially the same country, which this and most Canadians would find condescending and insulting, but I'm not surprised to hear an American feel at liberty to express.

 

[Stantucker]

Obviously I can only speak for myself, and you can only speak for yourself. You raise some fair points about the notwithstanding clause but we can agree to disagree on many. This Canadian notes that this US citizen with some connection to Canada, and a better knowledge than most US citizens would have of Canada, I will grant you that, insists on making broad generalizations that are generally derogatory to whole swaths of Canada and Canadians. I certainly have my opinions which would probably cast US society unfavorably, however, I would not invoke them in a BA expats thread about food prices as between Montevideo and BA. In no place did I argue that Canadian society was post-racial or free of homophobia. What I do refrain from is making insulting comments with respect to other countries as a metaphor for an argument specific to this forum. If you would like to open a thread on the issue of Canadian versus US society on a whole host of issues, I will leave it up to you. And I'll be most willing to engage and debate you with respect, as a Canadian, your "boring, more expensive, if more stable version of the larger neighbor, that's basically the same country separated by a river/49th Parallel", with an insistence that we are not essentially the same country, which this and most Canadians would find condescending and insulting, but I'm not surprised to hear an American feel at liberty to express.

You've made your feelings about the US and its citizens more than clear.