Crime and Kindness

[davonz]

C´mon! You sound already like a "La Nacion" commenter.Please, Bogota...

A colombian friend here has told me it is safer in bogota than here.. He has been robbed here, but never in colombia.

Maybe people here should move out of the tourist areas, or even (gasp!) out of Buenos Aires and into the suburbs. And not, not paranoic San Isidro or a country club, but peaceful normal western and southern suburbs.

I have friends in Hurlingham, Escobar, Pilar, and (whisper) paranoid san isidro, who have been robbed or had their house broken into, and one has been car-jacked, so maybe the burbs are no different to central BA.. or maybe the type of people i know are asking to be robbed !!! Or maybe your idea of western suburbs is mendoza, but i know a couple who were robbed at gun point there too..

I have been pickpocketed here and ripped off by taxi drivers, and twice people have tried to steel my bags at bus stations, but dont feel particularly unsafe here. I have also walked home drunk and alone many a time at 4 or 5 am without a problem, but i also lived in capetown, which is very unsafe, and didnt have anything happen to me there either and didnt feel unsafe. But you know a city is unsafe when you leave a night club at 5:45am and at 6am the security guard it shot dead and the clubbers are robbed, and you dont believe it so go back the next day and see the blood on the foot path and the bullet holes in the wall..
So maybe i have just been lucky, maybe i look to poor to bother to rob.. who knows.. but when you know alot of people who have been a victim of crime in a very sort period of first arriving in a city you know crime is a problem, and i think it is a problem here !

 

[Santiago F]

Arty:

"have you been there?? clean streets, smiling people, armed gov't men with machine guns....."

I've been in Bogotá in 2002. I don't know if it has changed since, but even if it has for the better, I don't think the change is great.

Even though I love Bogotá and Colombia (and yes, they're more friendly and happy than we Argentines), they have serious problems with general safety (either guerrilla-related or common street violence). That's what colombians told me and other people who stayed there before I did. I, particularly, stayed in Northern Bogotá, which is the upper-class part of the city. Everything is fine there, streets are generally clean, things work more or less. But have you crossed the center of the city southwards?

Have you wandered Avenida Caracas at night?

Nothing ever happened to me while I was there, but I just stayed for two weeks.

I remember once crossing to the old town near La Candelaria, at daylight with my ex GF (who is colombian), and the number of tramps and beggars that followed us asking for money were a bit surprising for me. They didn't do us anything, but seeing all that makes you feel sad.

Having said that, I really loved Bogotá. BTW,

Originally Posted by marksoc
"C´mon! You sound already like a "La Nacion" commenter.Please, Bogota..."

marksoc, don't underestimate Bogotá. Even with its problems, it is a city with many things to see and do. I think that if it wasn't for that stereotype that comes from all related with guerrillas and narcos, Bogotá would be much more visited by tourists. It has a lot to offer.

But, going back to Arty's comments, I think you're just basing your reflections on personal experiences. Even though I love Bogotá, I acknowledge that it is not the safest place on Earth. I believe it's less safe than BA, by the way. I may be wrong, but you have to look at the stats too. Every piece of stats that I saw says that.

 

[arty]

But, going back to Arty's comments, I think you're just basing your reflections on personal experiences. Even though I love Bogotá, I acknowledge that it is not the safest place on Earth. I believe it's less safe than BA, by the way. I may be wrong, but you have to look at the stats too. Every piece of stats that I saw says that.

back to the "stats" issue. it has been mentioned here many times before that people don't bother to report crimes to the police in b.a.

 

[Santiago F]

back to the "stats" issue. it has been mentioned here many times before that people don't bother to report crimes to the police in b.a.

BA is NOT the only place in the world where that happens. Not reporting crimes to the police because of assuming nothing's gonna change is something very "Thirld world-ly". BA and Argentina are not the only Third World places.

 

[Lucas]

I have lived here for about a month. There are a lot of discussions regarding crime in this city; these are my opinion and observations.
One of the first things I was warned about when I was talking about going to Buenos Aires was to watch out for robberies. Friends who had formally lived here had mentioned that it’s common to get your wallet or purse stolen while living or visiting there. I didn’t worry about this too much because I often hear people say “well you can have this in any big city.”

I sell different products here and one of them is doors, so I have had the opportunity to talk to a lot of people in the short time I have lived here. The topic of security always comes up because people want to know if my doors are secure. The doors in demand here are the type that have bars on the inside that when locked, the bars extended into the wall, floor, and ceiling to provide a secure almost impenetrable lock. I was surprised that this is what people wanted. This type of locking system is modeled after the locking system used by banks.

Somehow in the course of meeting people I would ask if they had ever been a victim of theft here. Most people said yes. In fact, a high percentage of people said yes they had been robbed. These were people from different parts of the city, different ages, and both men and women. Many had been robbed several times. I began to keep an unofficial log of this because I was so amazed at how common it was. The part that intrigued me the most is that not one of these people had reported the crime. I couldn’t understand this. I would reply, “If you don’t report it, how can things ever get better?” I got many in depth lectures about the corruption in the government, the police force, and the system in general which I realized, I didn’t understand.

I had a run of 15 people in a row who had said they had been robbed before I found someone who said they had never been. Certainly there are a lot of people here and if you ask enough people and you can find almost anything. No, not everyone gets robbed but I believe a high percentage of people do. More so then most people realize and partly because so much theft takes place and no one ever knows about it. The majority of people I talked to are full time residence of this area so temporary residents might have a different point of view. I stopped asking people if they had been robbed because some of the stories of theft were not so petty. Some were filled with emotional accounts of knife or gun point and descriptions how they feared for their life.

I would love to say it’s no different here than any other big city but I can’t. It is a charming city with most of the people you meet being very kind. I find this kindness quite a contrast from the danger that seems to permeate the city. As a visitor, I follow the suggestions about being safe and travel around the city a lot. I personally have never been robbed, but I also know the bars over all the windows and inside the doors in this city are there for a reason.

First, people here are psychosis paranoid of everything they hear be it something from someone else that they are ready to communicate the bad news to everyone else but amplified by 1000% this is a way of life here gossip madness and on top of that lately with the communication media gurus that we have doesn't make life any easier in this country everything is magnified disproportionately, sensationalism is king.

Second, after the 2001 crisis people did not and do not deposit their money in the banks mostly dollars from the bygone era of the 1 to 1 (pesos-dollars) the majority won't do that but some yes because the interest given by the banks but not the little man on the street he/she won't so these 'little' savers 'encanutan' put their money under the mattress and sit on it.

Third, because of that 'chorros' robbers know that money are hidden somewhere in all apartments and houses over the city they will select their victims by research and tips, therefore all that extreme security attempts by people to protect themselves and their savings are justified by this paranoia, thing that you will find odd to say at least in every city-suburbia dwelling is there for one reason, locks, hight fences, razor blade tops on brick walls, security sensors and cameras etc, etc, etc.. they are only protecting their money and with that their integral being, every house, apartment is a little bank branch of a phantom bank.

 

[marksoc]

Hurlingham, Escobar, Pilar, and (whisper) paranoid san isidro

Escobar, Pilar, let me guess...

Yes, the commute from Ituzaingo and Castelar to the center is almost impossible if you dont have a car, and is because the quantity of people travelling, the trains in the Sarmiento line are now probably the best ones in all of BA (at least the 9 or so formations with AC, and the little "Castelar-Puerto Madero" train that costs 6 pesos).

The thing is, Castelar and Ituzaingo,and parts of Moron, and Haedo are populated by middle class families with nice houses, but if you were a bad guy, what would you prefer? To rob a house in San Isidro or in a country in Pilar? Or to choose a place in a suburb that could or probably could not have a safe with money on it? If you are one of those guys that rob wallets and Ipods, you are better going to "work" in Palermo, etc.

When something happens in Castelar,you will read about it because "La Nacion" doesn´t miss a chance to throw mud at Sabatella´s face (the previous kind-of-socialist mayor of the place), and at the same time it will under-report anything happening in some countries.

So, yes,I am partial to the West, but Sara, people living there love it, they are not desperate to move to Olivos even if they have the money to do so. I don´t know, maybe has to do with the way of life, the little stores with owners that know your name and have been there forever.

 

[HotYogaTeacher]

We live in a non "touristy" area, Congreso. We love it here. We never have any problems, nor do our neighbors. We have 24/7/365 security in our building and that's very nice.
We enjoy living in this middle class/working class neighborhood. The criminals tend toward the edges, they hunt the wealthy and they prey on the poor. Middle class neighborhoods are always best...

 

[SaraSara]

Escobar, Pilar, let me guess...

Yes, the commute from Ituzaingo and Castelar to the center is almost impossible if you dont have a car, and is because the quantity of people travelling, the trains in the Sarmiento line are now probably the best ones in all of BA (at least the 9 or so formations with AC, and the little "Castelar-Puerto Madero" train that costs 6 pesos).

The thing is, Castelar and Ituzaingo,and parts of Moron, and Haedo are populated by middle class families with nice houses, but if you were a bad guy, what would you prefer? To rob a house in San Isidro or in a country in Pilar? Or to choose a place in a suburb that could or probably could not have a safe with money on it? If you are one of those guys that rob wallets and Ipods, you are better going to "work" in Palermo, etc.

When something happens in Castelar,you will read about it because "La Nacion" doesn´t miss a chance to throw mud at Sabatella´s face (the previous kind-of-socialist mayor of the place), and at the same time it will under-report anything happening in some countries.

So, yes,I am partial to the West, but Sara, people living there love it, they are not desperate to move to Olivos even if they have the money to do so. I don´t know, maybe has to do with the way of life, the little stores with owners that know your name and have been there forever.

I used to live between Castelar and Ituzaingo, in an old quinta just off Santa Rosa and Inocencio Arias. It was a nice neighborhood with friendly people, but boarding the train in Once was hell on wheels. I'm glad to hear that has changed - the trains I remember were unfit for humans.

Now I'm in downtown San Isidro - not in the posh Horqueta area but in a nice middle class neighborhood with a verduleria/carniceria, a pharmacy, a pet shop, a hardware store and an "almacen" within two blocks of my home. I get bread at the panaderia La Argentina, which has been in the same location for the past hundred years, and still has the original hand-carved Art Nouveau counters.

San Isidro is not only gated neighborhoods and wealthy people - there are many unpretentious areas like mine. We get our fair share of holdups, but nothing like Recoleta or Palermo - the motochorros have not discovered us yet.

 

[Rabel]

First of all I’m Argentine, I’ll try to write in English.
Lucas I agree with you, but this is not happening only now, but since many years ago and above all since twenty years ago. I wish to point out this, because if we realize this is the case, then we must admit many things that happened in the past should be analyzed and revised. And therefore many decisions taken or many ideas the people have now, might be wrong. The media goes along with parts or sectors of the society that have common interests. However the people are the only one that should think and take decisions. For instance it is true that BA is not the only unsecure city in the world, moreover, it’s not the most dangerous one. It is also true that for instance just 60 km from BA, there is no inflation no devaluation there are no strikes every day and people don’t cut off routes every day either. I mean, it is difficult to believe that people, can not realize all this issues. In Argentina people use to align themselves with a sort of thinking or idea to take some advantage and then when it becomes a disadvantage changes immediately.

 

[Rabel]

I am sure that a high percentage of argentine population, among them, business men and economics professionals, know perfectly well what to do to finish with the inflation, and how to have a stable and predictable economy, and this dosen’t mean to have a rich country and no poverty at all, but it is a necessary condition. The point is that they simply do not want to, because a change in their behavior should be imposed. Argentine people love to live in their own country without the rule of law; they issue laws but just that, then they never accomplish them and they choose governments or candidates or systems that assure “no law enforcement”, they even want to avoid the natural law of supply and demand. Off course this has a cost and the “salidera” is just a sample.