Defining Argentina

Mini, not being totally dumb, of course I know that DC is more transient than other US cities. However, the moving figure I quoted is a national average.

That is: NATIONAL, as for the whole US. It is probably higher in the DC metro area and lower in Lincoln, Nebraska. Interestingly enough, we noticed the same house rotation when we lived in Black Forest, Colorado. Eight houses in the street, and at the end of our three years there we were the second-oldest residents

Here are some figures - you are welcome to check them out.

40 million Americans move each year, that is 1 in 6 people.
The average American moves 11.7 times in a lifetime

http://www.census.gov/population/www/pop-profile/geomob.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_often_do_people_move_in_the_US

It is such a well-known phenomenon that it merited whole classes in the Sociology and Psychology courses I took in college.
 
At least from the United States where I am from... its not that normal to have huge extended families in one place... and I have few friends that didn't move at least once while under the age of 18 and basically all moved after the age of 18... and often many times. Americans in general do move a lot (see above stats). And that is culturally acceptable to us. And we are pretty good examples of that attitude... None of us ended up in Argentine by force. Our willingness to move shows to a certain extent... the level of dedication to our friends and family (or lack there of?)... especially those of us who not only live in another state but in another continent. Sure... many of us are here for our significant others but we were open to relationships that took us so far from home. However, there are always exceptions... which sounds like a few of you have. I don't think its impossible to have deep relationships in the US... just less common.
 
Yes but I would say that figure (moving) is misleading. Lots of times people move in the same city/town. For example, when I lived in NYC - I moved 5 times in 9 years. In my life, I've probably had 16 different addresses.

Shrug - I just think it's misleading to say because you have geographic distance from friends/family, that makes the relationships any less meaningful or important to people. It's just a different way of living. So this "Americans are wonderfully friendly NEIGHBORS, but are not much given to the kind of deep, close, lifelong friendships we know here" is completely not true, at least for me and my circle of friends. In fact, in many ways, I would say that even though I'm far apart from my friends geographically, we're closer than many average friends here.

Not that this has anything to do with the original premise of the thread. And I still fail to see how anyone could argue that Argentina is a developing country. Yes, again, Capital Federal is a distinct situation. But outside of Cap Fed - it's an entirely different world.
 
citygirl said:
Yes but I would say that figure (moving) is misleading. Lots of times people move in the same city/town. For example, when I lived in NYC - I moved 5 times in 9 years. In my life, I've probably had 16 different addresses.

Shrug - I just think it's misleading to say because you have geographic distance from friends/family, that makes the relationships any less meaningful or important to people. It's just a different way of living. So this "Americans are wonderfully friendly NEIGHBORS, but are not much given to the kind of deep, close, lifelong friendships we know here" is completely not true, at least for me and my circle of friends. In fact, in many ways, I would say that even though I'm far apart from my friends geographically, we're closer than many average friends here.

Not that this has anything to do with the original premise of the thread. And I still fail to see how anyone could argue that Argentina is a developing country. Yes, again, Capital Federal is a distinct situation. But outside of Cap Fed - it's an entirely different world.

Thank you CityGirl as always you say it better than me.

Anyway, I'm going to move on as I've done enough thread derailing for one week. LOL.

My original gripe stemmed from Perciles comparisons in the re-immigration thread of "upper middle class Buenos Aires" to the US/EUR/OZ particularly minimum wage in Spain....
 
citygirl said:
Yes but I would say that figure (moving) is misleading. Lots of times people move in the same city/town. For example, when I lived in NYC - I moved 5 times in 9 years. In my life, I've probably had 16 different addresses.

Shrug - I just think it's misleading to say because you have geographic distance from friends/family, that makes the relationships any less meaningful or important to people. It's just a different way of living. So this "Americans are wonderfully friendly NEIGHBORS, but are not much given to the kind of deep, close, lifelong friendships we know here" is completely not true, at least for me and my circle of friends.

When families move, even if it is only across town, children must change schools. They make new friends, and lose some of their old ones. This happened in DC and in rural Colorado as well.

In my view, the concept of friendship is not the same in the US and Argentina - both countries have, indeed, "a different way of living". To each its own. We don't consider it "offensive" (as Mini wrote) to be offered a loan by a friend when we are in trouble - rather, we take it as a proof of true friendship. But apparently Americans view this differently. To us, it is not a matter of independence or lack of it, but of helping a friend in need. We must depend on each other as, unlike the US, here it is almost impossible to get a loan from a bank.

As to the status of Argentina, it used to be a developing country, but it has now deteriorated into a Third World country. Buenos Aires included, despite its glossy facade.
 
SaraSara said:
In my view, the concept of friendship is not the same in the US and Argentina - both countries have, indeed, "a different way of living".

I don't know about friendship in the US, but in general I would say there are 2 sorts of friends : the ones you have for life (that are not many), they remain your friends even if you move to the other side of the world or if you hear/see them very little. When you see them again after a year or more, it is as if you saw him only the day before.

Then there is the other kind of friends, that can be really good friends when you are close, maybe you see/hear each other every day and share about anything, but as soon as you move 'out of sight is out of mind'.

I am sure that the 1st type of friends, every one has them. No matter where they are from.
In my opninion, the 2nd kind of friends is the one that is different to Europe and Argentina : here this friendship goes a lot deeper, people help each other more, there is more trust.... Here you are called a 'friend' when in Europe you would still be an 'aquaintance'. And here, a friend, they will help at all times.

This is my personal experience...
 
I dont know about that. fact is ppl in us and uk and canada, places all in which i have lived, are definitely colder than argies. and bc all good things come your way through knowing others, and because they are cranked up in the emotional department, i think there is a stronger link, much more highly charged, and a tropism towards togetherness. Which is why i am making it my home.
 
ssr said:
This is absolutely the biggest problem I have with Argentina. While people from other Latin America countries tend to complain about Argentine arrogance, it's not really the arrogance that's the problem. The real problem is that, for God knows what reason, Argentines are encouraged to act as if they've got everything figured out at all times, even when they haven't got a clue what they're talking about. If there's one thing that I would tell anyone heading to Argentina for the first time to expect, it's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

When one chooses to be both ignorant and arrogant, there's really no way forward. And Argentina as a whole will continue to shoot itself in the foot as long as this sort of thing is encouraged. Brazilians are quietly going about making their country into a South American superpower--and building all sorts of advanced technology like the fleet of planes that Aerolineas Argentinas just bought and components for the International Space Station--while Argentines continue to mostly just make noise about how everything is "the best" in Argentina. It's dumb. Argentines need to find some humility fast and start learning from their neighbors.




SaraSara, you write often about the benefits of tight-knit families and communities in Argentina, and I agree that these are usually good things, but not always.

My brother-in-law's Argentine mother can't stand visiting her family in Argentina (and, now that her mother has died, she probably won't ever be back). The entire family works for the family company (they put up buildings, I think) and they are all well-educated in their particular fields and have plenty of money (and, from what I've heard, they were seriously rolling in it during the "one-to-one"). But they are also incredibly narrow-minded people and see anyone leaving the family to go live elsewhere as a betrayal. One cousin decided to take a job offer in Atlanta and took his family to the US and the rest of the family threw a fit. When he and his family failed to adjust to life in the US and returned to Argentina, they were met with "I told you so" gloating from the rest of the family and he was given a lower position in the company than the one he left.

Families who provide unconditional care and support, regardless of what an individual family member chooses to do with their life, are good; families full of spiteful, jealous, ignorant jackasses are, well, less good. "Lifelong friends" can also often do a pretty good job of holding one back or, worse, leading one astray. Happening to know someone when you're a child doesn't automatically make them a worthwhile friend when you're both adults.

And close families or communities who are suspicious of, or less respectful of, anyone outside of their circle of trust can end up doing or condoning some pretty dumb things. For example, you wrote the following on that recent dating thread:



Pretty creepy. And yet another self-destructive Argentine behavior. A foreigner could visit Argentina looking to potentially invest millions in the place but get scammed so much by short-sighted locals that he or she gives up and moves on to Brazil or Chile.

Again, I do think that supportive families and communities are usually good things but you really seem to be painting too rosy a picture of "lifelong friends and caring relatives" in Argentina at this point. I mean, you argued above that, amongst other things, "security and safety" are a "poor trade-off" for the closeness of family and friends. Really? I think plenty of families huddled together in corrupt, dangerous places throughout the world would gladly spend a bit more time apart if they could trust that the people they care about (and everyone else in their country) were safe and secure and had all sorts of great opportunities and laws were enforced equally for everyone and so on.

But, anyway, there doesn't have to be a trade-off. People can have close families AND security and safety AND cool electronic toys AND all sorts of other things. Maintaining all of it requires effort, of course, but the idea that people in developed countries are sacrificing relationships with family or friends in exchange for gadgets or whatever is a bit silly.
Well said.
 
Bitterness is a huge motivating factor for these profilic posters who in the main have left Buenos Aires and now feel miserable and want us to feel as miserable as them . They have left Argentina due to personal reasons and now they are gleeful anytime a negative remark is posted about Buenos Aires and Argentinians.

One of our most profilic anti BA posters was enamored with the city in the beginning but due to his own reasons he gave up and now has gone full circle.

This was one of his first posts that to me seems a fair impression of our city . It is a shame that he did not take his own advice as he seemed such a nice person then.
Hi, I just arrived in BsAs, after 6 years in Turkey. I found myself bickering and complaining about the culture there, the prices, greed etc... The inflation of those years with next to no increase in pay... has caused the culture to become one of people looking after only their own needs, seemingly with no regard for others...the "rich" get "richer"...the poor suffer. I have been here for a mere 3 months, but I can tell you this...maybe it's time for all of you to pay a visit to where you came from, or stop complaining so much, and get on living. I can tell you that the cost of living in the USA, Europe and Turkey is 3-5 times that of here...I own property in Istanbul, and live off the rent whilst looking for property here... The apartment in Istanbul is 100m2 & my bills are as follows (in U$S per month) 120$ gas, 30$ electric, 40$ phone, 40$ cable, 40$dsl..... Cigs 4$ (5 euro in europe) bottle of shit wine 15$, milk 2 $ 1l, Taki 2$ the sec you get in, and about 2$ per km, dining for 2 with wine in a decent restaurant 100$ minimumI know that many of you earn your pesos here (a guess) so you are feeling the crunch...but for your buck...this city is full of wonderful museums, galleries, creative designers and artists, that with very little, produce goods to be enjoyed by many.... Maybe you should all take another look at what many wonders this place does have...
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