Devastating.

[Matiasba]

I think I disagree Matias. I think going back and looking at hard date and history can really help moving forward. There's no reason to believe this country cannot be a country with great wealth and low poverty. I didn't read the article from the Economist (which smells a bit like propaganda looking at the cover), but it is smart to see why the country is at where it is today. Argentina does not need to compete with Brazil or Argentina, it doesn't need to compete with anyone as it is a country of 40 million. But there is more to those speeches about what Argentina once was than empty propaganda. Things were once more prosperous, so people ask if it was so in the recent past, why couldn't it be in the future? I see no reason this country cannot be prosperous is people would change their ethics and mentality.

To improve a social situation, small business is vital. The most successful anti-poverty programs in today's world are in fact small capitalist projects. That is a fact. Small business can completely revitalize tons of people's lives. You should not measure success in a resource rich country such as this just because people eat. This country should have a first world standard of living, but you have people in Santiago del Estero that don't get enough to eat. People here are right to expect more.

The problem with those speeches is that they are deeply linked to a model of a country, and to one particular sector of Argentine economy, the "campo". That prosperous sector managed to get Argentina into a specific world market economy, back in 1900, and when those conditions changed, they couldn adapt. Since then, any attempt on betting for industry in this country is called "poco serio" or "corrupto" or "aluvion zoologico". They want a model of society as Buenos Aires is Argentina or as we were in the middle of Europe and don’t share borders with Paraguay and Bolivia, for instance, they want closed borders, they don’t want migración campo-ciudad, they don’t want an inclusive society, they don’t like when the poor have money to buy their meat cause that means they cant sell it in dollars but in pesos “a estos negros”.
This “European-agro export-no industry” model of society is the one they want and if something does not fit then we are a “pais poco serio”, and the “negros peronistas” are colonizing us. They don’t like rights or sindicates or political power in other hands.
So the country we had until the 1930 crisis has a lot of weight in argentine collective imaginarium. They have used this speech all over the XXth century. They tried several times to get back to that model, with militaries coups, with dictatorships. They never see Argentina as a part of Latin America. They still pretend we are Europeans, they don’t accept Paraguayans and Bolivians, and they think Recoleta is Argentina. Santiago del Estero? That’s South America, we are Europeans! That’s the speech, and when reality hits they then say, “because we are un pais poco serio”. They now still dont adapt their political thoughts to these days, they are conservative and dream with an agrarian country.

 

[Matiasba]

Come on Matias, it would be very hard to deny that CFK and her cronies, both past and present, have made a right royal mess of the economy.
The most accurate line in that piece was when the author felt that most of Argentina's problems are self inflicted.

I think the CFKs economic measures are, in general, very good to argentine people. Every social indicator improoved, and A LOT, in this ten years. And Im not talking of Indec data.
Then, of course, politics is conflict, so if you give to some people, you must take from other. Thats govern. The people, the 53% we had under the poverty line in 2001, today are waaaaay much better, in a lot of aspects.

 

[Matiasba]

Matias, your post is wrong on so many levels:


Why is thinking how a country can be improved nationalistic? And how does a "our country is what it is" mentality help in increasing the wealth of a country?


Yes, countries today are not completely independent, but is that an excuse to do nothing? And what has the number of people to do with it? Why does Chile much better than Argentina, while having the same neighbors and only about half the population?


Have you ever asked yourself what the GINI actually means? Then you'd know that this figure says nothing about the wealth in isolation. Imagine 2 countries have exactly the same prices. In country A, everyone earns 1000$, in country B, 80% of the population earn 1500$ and 20% earn 3000$. According to your goals, you will strive for country A as it has the best possible GINI...


At least we can agree on this...

*As I said before the "we were better back in 1900" today is going nowhere. It is not constructive, it is linked with a model of society without industry, linked with "el campo" that doesnt employ a big percentage of the population. To grow this country needs industry, not agro bussiness that leaves gain to one.

*You need to read better. OR DONT PUT THINGS IN MY MOUTH I DIDNT SAY. When did I say that "doing nothing" is better? PLEASE SHOW ME.

*I dont think Chile is much better than Argentina. As you said.

*To have a good GINI is to have a balanced society, and in this region is crucial. It is one of the big problems societies have today, inequality. Go and check Chiles GINI and then come and tell me how good is that.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

I think the CFKs economic measures are, in general, very good to argentine people. Every social indicator improoved, and A LOT, in this ten years. And Im not talking of Indec data.

Matias, while what you say might be true you can't drive forever while looking in the rear-view mirror. I don't know that anyone is saying that the last 10 years were not a general, and sometimes big, improvement. But at what cost?

I can rob my bank account and lie to my wife that I got a big raise for doing a great job at work. We could buy new cars, a new house, new clothes and go on vacation. However, sooner or later she's going to find out that I lied and spent all of our money. How do you think she's going to react?

That's the same thing that is happening here. Argentina has has a windfall with the Soy Dollar, and has blown it like an NFL first-round draft pick.

You agree that the money is running out, yes?

 

[Rich One]

Matias, your post is wrong on so many levels:


Why is thinking how a country can be improved nationalistic? And how does a "our country is what it is" mentality help in increasing the wealth of a country?


Yes, countries today are not completely independent, but is that an excuse to do nothing? And what has the number of people to do with it? Why does Chile much better than Argentina, while having the same neighbors and only about half the population?


Have you ever asked yourself what the GINI actually means? Then you'd know that this figure says nothing about the wealth in isolation. Imagine 2 countries have exactly the same prices. In country A, everyone earns 1000$, in country B, 80% of the population earn 1500$ and 20% earn 3000$. According to your goals, you will strive for country A as it has the best possible GINI...


At least we can agree on this...

The best way for Argentina to improve the GINI and wealth distribution gap . Cut the income in half of the upper quartile..!
and reduce the GAP . Much faster than increasing the income of the lower quartile.

 

[thorsten]

Maybe you should read your post again Matias, I actually quoted the parts I was commenting... But honestly you seem to ignore rational arguments anyway, so let's just pretend Chile is not performing better than Argentina and the actual wealth of a country doesn't matter, just its distribution - so if everyone is poor, everything will be fine... By the way, Venezuela has actually a better GINI index, but you are on a good way to catch up as the politics go towards the same direction

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

The problem being matias is that you dont want to measure argentina by past performance but keep telling us about things that happened in the past.

My view is that past bad behaviour by certain sections of the population should have given rise to stronger independent institutions. In that alone i agree with the economist. Country must have an independent central bank, judiciary and civil service.

Actually in some respects Argentina has a post conflict social climate, most Argentines have a mindset stuck in conflict mode, there is no rhetoric from the govt and certainly not from you matias about forgiveness and inclusion. Actually the inclusion promoted by fpv is the inclusion of their voting base, it is not universal. Its sad, maybe only massa makes some noises about working with everyone but its not loud or convincing. The conflict of the 21st century has been economic and it feels like the fighting is still in progress.

We have bogeymen terms like the campora and the neoliberals thrown around and everyone seems to have to take a side, its black and white, all very binary and this of course creates divisions in society which echo through many if not all social interactions. Again, its sad to see a people so divided. Really reminds me of Belfast in the early 90s.

 

[AmigoArtistico]

Burn the meat? Sh*t, you can't get them to cook a steak it past medium rare here!

Nor a pizza.

 

[Matiasba]

You agree that the money is running out, yes?

No, I mean, yes this government is runnning out of money, but we have assets, like vaca muerta (houndreds of billions) and mega mineria and other stuffs that make bankrupt a rare probability.

 

[Matiasba]

The best way for Argentina to improve the GINI and wealth distribution gap . Cut the income in half of the upper quartile..!
and reduce the GAP . Much faster than increasing the income of the lower quartile.

its all about the distribuition of wealth. In 2004 the upper classes took 17 times what the poorer decile, today its 12. Chiles is 35.