European Visa/residency Question

[Killarney]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_(European_Union_law)

And the EU most certainly does have laws and these must be obeyed by all member states. When there is a conflict between member state law and EU law it is EU law that must be obeyed.

 

[Girino]

I removed my post because I found out you are right.

My observation came from my business experience, which proves yet again how a shitty country Italy is. Sorry for posting wrong info, it was done in good faith.

 

[Killarney]

No hay problema! I am a bit passionate about this one as the member states cause ALL kinds of problems for people and most just accept it. But if you are very confident, you have EU laws in hand and ask for a supervisor if there are any issues at immigration control then there are very few immigration officials who will give you problems after that.

 

[Girino]

My business experience was often dictated by the fact that EU Directives are somewhat generic, and then specific details should be covered by each single state by implementing national laws - for example, stating which specific national entity you should apply to in order to fulfil an obligation, who does the inspections, etc. In a lot of cases the Italian law was a simply copy-paste of the EU directive, which basically didn't add a thing to what was already stated in the EU Directive, and left us all very confused.
Even the local entities said they didn't know things because "no orders came in" about specific issues.

I even have issues in having Italian laws recognised in Italy, and walking in their offices with laws at hand won't make them change their mind.
Currently I am trying to have my marriage recognised by Italian authorities, since it was celebrated here in Buenos Aires. The Italian law says I can do it either at the Italian Consulate here in Buenos Aires, or in my hometown in Italy. But my local city hall says it is not true (I sent my mom with a page from the Italian foreign ministry with the law saying so) and bounced back my request.
I have now an appointment at the Italian consulate next week, but I am already steamy, and not in the nice sense.
But the Italian consulate will attend citizens for bureaucratic matters only if you are registered as residing abroad and specifically in the region covered by that consulate, but registering as such has many drawbacks, for one, most of Italian banks don't let non residents have an account with them.

Should I repeat that Italy sucks BIG TIME?

 

[Patagone]

That is incorrect. The law and the courts have been very clear and have ruled numerous times on this. . ANY spouse of an EU citizen has full rights to live and work within the EU....anywhere in the EU.
I have been through this whole process myself. EU law supercedes national law. What many EU countries TRY to do is impose some kind of national law to impede you and many just accept this and don't push.
This is illegal however and armed with a simple photocopy of the applicable EU laws on this matter you will be let in even in the Netherlands. (Although no one is planning to go there)
Legally you need nothing more than a marriage licence and I would advise travelling together.

The member states talk tough but the law on this matter is clear.

Wrong. Please check https://ind.nl/EN/individuals/residence-wizard/eu/third-country-nationals
I am Dutch and so maybe somebody is planning to go there, Actually so many people are planning to go there that this once progressive country is now the most restrictive. You can shout EU LAW! many times, but that won't stop you from getting deported. Good luck trying to be the first to beat this.

Quote from the above article (which is from the Immigration service).
"Please note!

Although Dutch citizens are also EU citizens, it is not possible to apply for the certificate of lawful residence if you want to stay in the Netherlands as a family member or relative of a Dutch national. There is one exception to this, namely:

• You are a family member or relative of a Dutch national, and
• The Dutch national with whom you wish to stay resided previously in another EU/EEA Member State or in Switzerland under EU Law (as an employee, a self-employed person, a student, or an economically non-active person), and
• You stayed with the Dutch national in the other EU/EEA Member State or in Switzerland, and
• The Dutch national currently lives in the Netherlands again"

See also http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgi%C3%AB-route There is no version in another language as there is none needed. But basically the exception above describes it.

 

[Killarney]

Italy is it's own monster. Portugal may be worse. I have spent time in 35 plus different countries and a more bureacratic place you could not imagine. If you did not like the answer you received from a government office you could just ring back and speak to someone else and get a different answer! No one had a clue and you were running here and there and then back to here!
It makes Argentina look like a Swiss watch.

To the original poster I would not advise Spain unless you have jobs already set. The economy is beyond bad and wages are very low. I just returned from there and things have not improved much. Head to the UK and enjoy the rainy weather with the millions of eastern europeans already there.

 

[Girino]

Glad you were able to grasp the true essence of Italy beyond the usual pizza and museums carousel.
Unfortunately in my city hall there are just 2 employees (it is a small town) at the civil register, so they are unfortunately on the same page about this.
I could send a formal injunction and request a written answer to my request, so that I can enforce it in court. But it is too much time and money.

Just like you mentioned, a web page is not perceived as LAW by the officials enforcing the law.

 

[Killarney]

​If a citizen of the European Union (EU), European Economic Area (EEA) or Switzerland is living in the Netherlands, their family members who are not EU/EEA or Swiss citizens also have the right to live here.


This the first line of the link you provided.

The specific case that you present applies only to Dutch nationals. All other nationalites can bring their spouses to live there freely.

This is nothing new. Many countries have tried this in the past and lost every time in the courts. I provided the link and I will state it again. EU law SUPERCEDES member state national law.

In any case I've been there and there's not much to see unless you want to get stoned.

 

[nkotb]

Seems like an important enough life decision to hire an immigration lawyer in your country of choice and find out the answer.

 

[Patagone]

​If a citizen of the European Union (EU), European Economic Area (EEA) or Switzerland is living in the Netherlands, their family members who are not EU/EEA or Swiss citizens also have the right to live here.

This the first line of the link you provided.

The specific case that you present applies only to Dutch nationals. All other nationalites can bring their spouses to live there freely.

This is nothing new. Many countries have tried this in the past and lost every time in the courts. I provided the link and I will state it again. EU law SUPERCEDES member state national law.

In any case I've been there and there's not much to see unless you want to get stoned.

It's impressive that you know so much and have better knowledge than thousands of mixed couples fighting this exact fight for years. I guess they - and their immigration lawyers- are all wrong, as you surely can't be.

Tip: if you want to earn some good money, help all these people out, as they would love to have somebody next to them, shouting 'EU LAW. It;s EU LAW', while they get their rejection stamps. Please post a youtube link of your vctories.