Expats not happy, why stay?

[SaraSara]

I have no doubt that Argentina will survive but I'm sure it's not pleasant going through it.

We're residents & I can bail whenever I want. At the end of the day, if thing really get bad we just need to find the airport.

Sounds like a rootless kind of life to me - the price of such freedom can be too high.

Of course the next couple of years will not be pleasant...! That goes without saying. However, we have been through many crises, and by now have become experts at surviving them. These periodic upheavals must be much harder for foreigners used to stable economies, who lack the locals' training in financial tightrope-walking, and also lack a strong local support system.

I'm glued to Argentina because of family ties - children, siblings, cousins, etc. - and nothing short of war and pestilence could unglue me. They are worth putting up with a little financial hardship, dog poop on the sidewalks, bad pizza, and even the absence of peanut butter.

Those strong family ties are precisely what help make crises bearable - they are easier to weather with a safety-net of kin and close friends. There's always a cousin, or an uncle, or a friend, or a SOMEBODY willing to lend a hand when things get really hairy. They provide loans, free places to stay, shoulders to cry on, and hold family asados where we can commiserate with each other, tell a few jokes, and let it all hang out.

Being near family and old friends means a lot to Argentines - it's the silver lining not everyone gets to see.

 

[gouchobob]

I agree Argentina will survive what's coming. I don't want people to think I hope they lose money on their property investments there. I hope Soulskier and others make a tidy profit if and when they decide to sell. But the basic problem here is political not economic. Argentina has had an almost unblemished record of bad governments for the last 60 or 70 years. It makes any kind of long term investment here highly speculative at best. This has led to the long term decline of the country which continues until this day.

The situation today looks like economic stagnation with high inflation. Not a very good environment for investors. The cost of living at the current rate of inflation will double in less than 3 years. If this continues there will probably not be enough expats left here to fill a small economy car. The impact on the Argentines is even worse as very few can raise their incomes fast enough to keep up with inflation, which over time is eroding their purchasing power for everything including properties sold in dollars.

However, the fact that there are few mortgages helps keep property prices more stable as people are not necessarily forced to sell when the economy is bad. My prediction for property values for the next ten years would be that they will remain fairly steady in nominal terms, but will decline(maybe significantly) in real terms as the dollar will no doubt decline in value as well.

I would say property today on a world-wide basis is significantly over-valued. There appears to be property bubbles in Canada, Australia, China, and other countries. This appears largely due to easy credit in recent years and the unfounded belief by many that property values only go up.

My main concern for the world economy today is China whose rapid growth in recent years is looking increasingly unsustainable. If China slows down a bunch or crashes my guess is we are in for much harder times. I would predict falling prices for all asset classes including property. South America including Argentina could be hard hit as the boom in many countries here was fueled by higher commodity prices, if China stops buying what happens?

 

[SaraSara]

... if China stops buying what happens?

Nobody will have money to buy what China exports.

 

[almagestos]

I do agree with your post soulskier, but on the other hand it is nice to find out the good and the bad before you move here, if these people didn't bitch and moan many people may move here spending money and time only to find out that they do not like it here and if they would have read all these negative posts they would not have moved here in the first place.

No coincido con vos, yo creo que una persona debe descubrir por si misma las cosas buenas y malas de un lugar, no te podés guiar por lo que te digan los demás... lo que para algunos es una situación alarmante o desagradable para otros no es motivo de escándalo o preocupación, además todas las personas tienen experiencias muy diferentes, mucha gente ha venido a la Argentina y la ha pasado de maravilla, otros han venido y les han robado al salir del aeropuerto... así como ocurren cosas buenas y malas en Argentina, lo mismo ocurre en otros países.

Todos los humanos tenemos las mismas virtudes, los mismos defectos, las mismas miserias como seres humanos... por lo tanto las injusticias, las malas o buenas experiencias que podés vivir en Argentina también te pueden ocurrir en otros países tengan la cultura o el desarrollo que tengan...

Por eso lo mejor es arriesgar y vivir tus experiencias sin guiarte por lo que te cuenten los demás...

 

[perry]

Can anyone still put credence in Gouchobob who for close to 3 years has been saying that Argentina will collapse and not to invest here and not to buy property even though prices have increased over 10 percent per year since 2003 and still are increasing due to many factors that are seperate from world events and do not have any connection to the USA.

Maybe we shall keep fiat currecies Gouchobob and watch them in a few years vanish in the wind .

Argentina offers the best lifestyle in the world for many to the suprise of those negative doomsayers who equate our country with a false image that has no basis in fact.

Our economy is growing faster than any european country now and growth for 2010 is predicted to be over 6 percent
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5BP1ET20091226

We are not in recession like the majority of the western world . Yes there are issues of inflation and injustices and crime that have increased. There is no doubt that these are drug based increases in the main with the rapid rise of paco and other drug addictions in the Capital Federal.

I predict that Argentina in a few years wil be the promised land as all factors are leading that way . There is no environment nor country worldwide that has the agriculture , resources, water supplies that this very blessed country has and with a population of just 40 million people .

Buenos Aires is not for everyone its a gritty city of over 10 million people but the country of Argentina has a wealth of beautiful towns that are perfect places to retire to and bring up a family. I certainly believe that Patagonia and Mendoza Province are pristine for families and would highly recommend them to retirees or new pioneers.

 

[almagestos]

This continues to puzzle me, despite some conversations on the subject with Argentine friends and family: until no more than twenty years ago, Argentina, with all its mismanagement and corruption, was definitely the foremost Latin American nation educationally, culturally, and economically. Now, both Brazil and Chile bid fair to surpass Argentina in all these areas. Why doesn't patriotism or even envy stir Argentines to reform their ways (even simply by copying Chilean straightforwardness -- less corruption) and regain pre-eminence?

('Sorry to be so blunt, but the anonymity of the 'Web affords me opportunity to ask directly what I cannot of friends and family without hurting or embarrassing them.)

¿Por qué todos hablan de la corrupción en Argentina?

Yo no quiero justificar la corrupción que hay en mi país (me parece terrible que la gente se corrompa) pero creo que es entendible que en los países subdesarrollados la gente se corrompa más fácil que en los países desarrollados, por lo tanto no creo que sea algo de lo que haya que asombrarse...

En los países subdesarrollados los sueldos son muy bajos, por eso cuando a las personas se les presenta la oportunidad de obtener dinero extra en forma ilegal lo hacen (por ejemplo un policía o político que te perdona una infracción a cambio de dinero... en el caso de los policías arriesgan su vida por $2000 ¿ustedes lo harían?) o sea al corromperse están sacando ventaja económica de una situación, no debería ser así, pero caen en la tentación...

En los países desarrollados los sueldos son buenos, la gente no necesita corromperse para ganar más pero igualmente toman ventaja económica de su situación cuando pueden...

Ustedes mismos están tomando ventaja económica al venir con euros o dólares a un país con una moneda devaluada... con cuatro o cinco chirolas se recorren todo el país (que muchos argentinos no conocen) y a los amerindios del norte con una monedita de euro o dólar le compran todo lo que se les ocurra... o sea no les representa nada de pérdida, de hecho hay turistas europeos y norteamericanos que encima de que vienen con euros y dólares tienen la caradurez de regatear con los pobres amerindios que tal vez no tienen ni electricidad en su casa... eso me parece una bajeza tan similar a la corrupción

Por más que eso no sea considerado corrupción también es tomar ventaja económica de la situación... y yo creo que esa necesidad del ser humano de tomar ventaja económica es lo que explica la existencia de la corrupción...

Recuerden la frase de Arjona "Si el norte fuera el sur, sería la misma porquería" jaja

Los sudamericanos no son corruptos porque quieran... si tuvieran las oportunidades que tienen ustedes de andar por el mundo y que todo le resulte barato seguramente tampoco se corromperían...

Por otro lado Argentina tiene más de 2.700.000 km2 de superficie (el octavo país más extenso del mundo), no todo lo que ocurra en Buenos Aires es representativo del resto de Argentina...

Yo vivo en un pueblo de 3000 habitantes y aún podemos dormir en el verano con las ventanas abiertas o dejar las puertas de nuestras casas o autos sin llave... ni siquiera sabemos lo que es una alarma... a mi jamás me han apuntado con un arma ni me han asaltado...

No creo que sea justo generalizar, además las cosas malas que te puedan ocurrir saliendo de noche en Buenos Aires también te pueden ocurrir en Nueva York, Río, Tokio o donde sea...

Por otro lado no entiendo por qué nos comparan siempre con Chile y Brasil...

 

[brocolliandtea]

Scroll down, a little more, more, lower, thats right, and find Argentina. What balderdash Alma! For those of you who dont speak Spanish, he blamed it on everyone else. A classic Arg. move.

I cant tell whether this society is amoral or just indocrinated from an early age to be out for number one. The govt. basically exists just to feed in the illicit dollars.

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table

 

[ElQueso]

almagestos - what comes first, the chicken or the egg? You say the people/governments in undeveloped countries are corrupt because they are poor and don't earn a good wage.

I submit that the poor don't earn a good wage and never get ahead because their societies are corrupt.

The US not so long ago was every bit as poor as what I see in South America. My grandmother lived much as my wife's family lives now. My mother's family did not live much better. But they were extremely proud, and that pride was not based on machismo (as an example) but rather on the fact that they were "incorruptible."

Of course, humanity itself is not perfect and everywhere, no matter how "developed" a nation, there will be those who are corrupt and those who are not. The problem to me is that the latin culture is, for some reason, more corrupt than other European countries. I won't argue the reason for that because I don't know.

The other "of course" here is that we are all watching the US become more and more corrupt, more and more socialistic, and it is finding out that actually, the egg came first.

 

[sesamosinsal]

En los países subdesarrollados los sueldos son muy bajos, por eso cuando a las personas se les presenta la oportunidad de obtener dinero extra en forma ilegal lo hacen (por ejemplo un policía o político que te perdona una infracción a cambio de dinero... en el caso de los policías arriesgan su vida por $2000 ¿ustedes lo harían?) o sea al corromperse están sacando ventaja económica de una situación, no debería ser así, pero caen en la tentación...

Hogwash. There are many politicians, bankers, and CEOs who have enough money to last them for the rest of their lives, but some are as corrupt as corrupt gets. Corruption happens because they can get away with it, not because they aren't making enough money.

 

[IFMGA]

¿Por qué todos hablan de la corrupción en Argentina?

Yo no quiero justificar la corrupción que hay en mi país (me parece terrible que la gente se corrompa) pero creo que es entendible que en los países subdesarrollados la gente se corrompa más fácil que en los países desarrollados, por lo tanto no creo que sea algo de lo que haya que asombrarse...

En los países subdesarrollados los sueldos son muy bajos, por eso cuando a las personas se les presenta la oportunidad de obtener dinero extra en forma ilegal lo hacen (por ejemplo un policía o político que te perdona una infracción a cambio de dinero... en el caso de los policías arriesgan su vida por $2000 ¿ustedes lo harían?) o sea al corromperse están sacando ventaja económica de una situación, no debería ser así, pero caen en la tentación...

En los países desarrollados los sueldos son buenos, la gente no necesita corromperse para ganar más pero igualmente toman ventaja económica de su situación cuando pueden...

Ustedes mismos están tomando ventaja económica al venir con euros o dólares a un país con una moneda devaluada... con cuatro o cinco chirolas se recorren todo el país (que muchos argentinos no conocen) y a los amerindios del norte con una monedita de euro o dólar le compran todo lo que se les ocurra... o sea no les representa nada de pérdida, de hecho hay turistas europeos y norteamericanos que encima de que vienen con euros y dólares tienen la caradurez de regatear con los pobres amerindios que tal vez no tienen ni electricidad en su casa... eso me parece una bajeza tan similar a la corrupción

Por más que eso no sea considerado corrupción también es tomar ventaja económica de la situación... y yo creo que esa necesidad del ser humano de tomar ventaja económica es lo que explica la existencia de la corrupción...

Recuerden la frase de Arjona "Si el norte fuera el sur, sería la misma porquería" jaja

Los sudamericanos no son corruptos porque quieran... si tuvieran las oportunidades que tienen ustedes de andar por el mundo y que todo le resulte barato seguramente tampoco se corromperían...

Por otro lado Argentina tiene más de 2.700.000 km2 de superficie (el octavo país más extenso del mundo), no todo lo que ocurra en Buenos Aires es representativo del resto de Argentina...

Yo vivo en un pueblo de 3000 habitantes y aún podemos dormir en el verano con las ventanas abiertas o dejar las puertas de nuestras casas o autos sin llave... ni siquiera sabemos lo que es una alarma... a mi jamás me han apuntado con un arma ni me han asaltado...

No creo que sea justo generalizar, además las cosas malas que te puedan ocurrir saliendo de noche en Buenos Aires también te pueden ocurrir en Nueva York, Río, Tokio o donde sea...

Por otro lado no entiendo por qué nos comparan siempre con Chile y Brasil...

**In English**
Why is everyone talking about corruption in Argentina?

I do not want to justify the corruption in my country (I am appalled that people are corrupt) but I think it is understandable that in developing countries are corrupt people easier than in developed countries, so do not think it something you have to wonder ...

In underdeveloped countries the wages are very low, so when people are presented with the opportunity to earn extra money illegally do so (for example a police officer or politician who forgives an offense in exchange for money ... If the police risk their lives for $ 2000 you guys would?) or the corrupt are taking economic advantage of a situation, it should be so, but fall into the temptation ...

In developed countries the wages are good, people do not need to earn more corrupt but also take economic advantage of their situation when they can ...

You yourselves are taking economic advantage to come up with euros or dollars to a country with an undervalued currency ... with four or five Chirol is touring the country (which many Argentines do not know) and North American Indians with a coin of euro or dollar will buy everything that comes to mind ... or do not represent anything of loss, in fact there are European and American tourists that come up with euros and dollars have the face to bargain with the poor Native Americans who may not even have electricity at home ... I think that's a meanness so similar to corruption

For more than that is not considered corruption also is to take economic advantage of the situation ... and I think that human need to take economic advantage is what explains the existence of corruption ...

Arjona Remember the phrase "If the North was the South, would be the same crap" haha

The South Americans are not corrupt because they want ... if they had the opportunities for you to travel the world and that everything will be cheaper probably not be corrupted ...

On the other hand Argentina has more than 2,700,000 km2 (the eighth largest country in the world), not everything that happens in Buenos Aires is representative of the rest of Argentina ...

I live in a town of 3,000 inhabitants and can still sleep in the summer with the windows open or leave the doors of our homes or cars unlocked ... do not even know what an alarm ... I have my never pointed a weapon and assaulted me ...

I do not think it's fair to generalize, as well as the bad things you can think of going out at night in Buenos Aires you can also occur in New York, Rio, Tokyo or wherever ...

On the other hand do not understand why we always compare Chile and Brazil ...

Why don't you try to write in English so we all can understand.