Fascists in Palermo

[Matt84]

I would paraphrase that in: The only way only one company can own all the media (or all any other sector for that matter) is without government intervention.

Think literally for a second. In what situation does only one company has actually 100% of the market? How long can that situation can be maintained without the use of force? How long before a competitor arrives bechmarking the monopolist success? The only situation in which that HAS happened is when the company is state-owned and competition is illegal. this can be explicit, as in socialism, or implicit as you surely know.

Utopia. Try to win a poker game to someone that has all the chips, in time you will end loosing all. More than 50 years of Friedman's ultra-free-market-economics should prove you wrong.

This is not a zero-sum game. Instead of thinking of a game of poker, thing of a building a sand castle. All parties involved win, creating order out of disorder. That is how wealth is created. Americans invented the phrase to MAKE money, because they were the first who got it right. Money (value), before it is looted or given away, it has to be CREATED.
While natural resources were once all-important, now a method (a collection of ideas not of materials!), like the Haber Fertilizing Method, or the whole IT industry, is way more important to produce value than raw commodities.
The, certainly not right-winger, genius Bucky Fuller, creator of the geodesic dome, also created the term "ephimerization", making more with less.
Oil is the last barrier. We have enough matter in our solar system for some good many centuries, and it doesn't belong to anyone it's pure homesteading. or spacesteading.....

Milton Friedman's policies prove me right! Is China a dirt-poor famine ridden hole? It used to be before Deng Xiaoping invited Milton to teach him how to let the people feed themselves. Now there're more millionaires in China than the entire American population, and an ever growing middle class. Same with Chile, same with America from Reagan to Clinton. Not perfect, obviously but it does prove that free markets generate overall wealth.

Netscape. ¿Rings a bell?

Yes, it sucked. It needed but didn't deserve Government protection. Firefox, Opera didn't need it because unlike Netscape they don't suck. That's why we still see them around. Who uses Netscape?

I've read the full law project, you are simply misinformed. You should read it in full extent before giving such an opinion, its misleading.

Again misinformed. La Nación & Clarín are partners in many media conglomerates.

I openly admit I have not read too much about that law, it all happened too fast and I was busy. Fortunately one doesn't need to know every detail to make a judgement if one is guided by principles. I'm not saying (at all) that the previous system was alright, but I'm pretty sure that a more intervened system is worse - specially and so goddam obviously under this government. It is an opportunity for them to perpetuate their duocracy[/QUOTE]

I couldn't have expressed it better.

Thanks,

You can find some nice graffitis here: http://www.callebsas.com.ar[/QUOTE]

Cool site

 

[orwellian]

Who uses Netscape?

Firefox is based on Netscape. The predecessor if you will.

 

[gouchobob]

And you are not part of the looney right? Please let me hear how you think having one company own all media is not undemocratic.



Whether I am or have been living in Venezuela is irrelevant. I have never met an American telling me I cannot criticize the USA if I have never been there. Yet, every time when I get into a discussion about Hugo Chavez, I hear that argument.

I do not think Hugo Chavez is, what he is often criticized of by his opponents, a dictator. You would have to tell me why you think he is authoritarian, I cannot guess. Although gouchobob gave me some examples. The problem is that most of what is said from the opposition are blatant lies and are easy to respond to, the hard part is that they are so many.

Ruling by decree
Not sure what you mean by this since there are frequent public referendums on major matters. Unless you want to be a hypocrite you should direct your criticism towards the US government. Who, for example, passed the Patriot Act I and II without anyone actually have read it, let alone had a referendum about it.

Shutting down critical media outlets
This is blatant lie, but an effective one. I think what gouchobob is referring to here is RCTV's cable TV license being revoked. They were not shut down, but lost their license due to numerous violations of their contract. Probably done on purpose to discredit the government. The same TV station publicly gave their support to the 2001 coup, hours after it happened. And they are still broadcasting to this day, although not longer on cable. How authoritarian huh?

Abolishing term limitations
I think you mean changing the constitution to allow the president to remain longer in power? Excuse me but don't you do exactly the same in the United States? If you want to change the constitution you just add amendments right? That is exactly what they did in Venezuela, but the only difference they actually had a referendum about it. Therefore making it more democratic than in the United States.

Harassment of opposition politicians and elected officials
Que? The people responsible for the coup attempt in 2001 are not being bars are they? The opposition bashes Chavez all the time and they are still allowed to be on air, have their demonstrations, etc. Who exactly is being harassed by the government?


I recommend you watch this documentary, made by two Irish filmmakers who got caught up in the 2001 coup. It gives you a clear insight what is going on in Venezula:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolution_Will_Not_Be_Televised_(documentary)
http://www.mininova.org/tor/42290

Not to debate, but only to clarify the misinformation that was offered in the above.

Ruling by decree means one guy in this case gets to make laws, not to democratic in my opinion and definitely authoritarian in my opinon. The following link will explain what this means for Hugoland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6277379.stm

Shutting dow Media Outlets means limiting press freedoms so that the people do not have objective information to judge what's going on. A free press is considered vital by most in a democracy and the lack of it almost is always associated with authoritarian regimes like Hugo's. Below is a link to Reporters Without Borders that give a detailed look at the lack of press freedom Venezuela

.http://www.rsf.org/en-rapport195-Venezuela.html

Abolishing term limitations in Hugo case means so that he can rule indefinitely another characteristic of an authoritarian regime. Of course he lost the first vote didn't accept the outcome and brought this back a second time. Of course now that its law there will be no more votes on the issue. His buddy Fidel has warned him that elections are dangerous.

Harassment of opposition politicians and elected officials is a must in an authoritarian regime like Hugo's. The following link provides an article on the problems opposition leaders are facing in Venezuela.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/21/AR2009042103686.html

 

[Moxon]

Getting back to my question, I was actually just interested in this statement:

During the First Peronist "Administration" (it was actually a semi-coup like Mussolini's March on Rome)

I find this period of Argentine history fascinating and often framing it within traditional European political templates proves problematic. I haven't heard Peron's election in 1946 referred to as a semi-coup (nor Mussolini's march on Rome, this was surely an outright coup) and I was just interested in what you meant by this.

 

[orwellian]

Ok, so let me clear out this misinformation for you:

Rule by decree
And you don't have that in the USA? Again, do I have to remind you not to be a hypocrite?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order_(United_States)
At least they had a referendum about it in Venezuela.

Shutting dow Media Outlets
So what is new in that article besides a law suit? I already explained the lies about RCTV. All your doing is finding another source than actually presenting any arguments.
Again, can you find a source that is not funded by the CIA?
According to Wikipedia:
An article by John Cherian in the leftist Indian magazine Frontline alleged that RWB "is reputed to have strong links with Western intelligence agencies" and "Cuba has accused Robert Meynard [SIC,] the head of the group, of having CIA links".

The following link provides an article on the problems opposition leaders are facing in Venezuela.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/21/AR2009042103686.html

Did you read the article? It's about ONE guy, and he is wanted on corruption charges and flees the country. Then calls it going into exile. How about he shows us a copy of that document that that national assembly guy allegedly saw? Do you think I am just going to take his word for it? Really, how gullible are you to believe in that? Where is that oppression you were talking about? Or was it just one guy you were referring to?

 

[mrisley]

Oh and what do you call it when the government tortures you and incarcerates you for years without a trial? By your own definition the United States is a fascist dictatorship then.

That is exactly what the US goverment is doing! They are becoming very close to a fascist dictatorship. That is for sure.

 

[Merlinova]

I never meant to say you had not right to talk about Venezuela. I just wanted to be sure you had experienced Chavez's Venezuela. How he has ruined MY country, How he has taken advantage of MY people, and even worst, our vulnerable system.

I've lived in the states for three years and I don't feel entitled to talk about their politics (yet). Same here in BsAs. I think I haven't gather enough experience to feel opinionated about political situation here.

I am a Venezuelan whose trying very hard not to go back to her country. So take from here. You have no idea how my country has been ruined. You HAVE to live there to really understand what's going on in Venezuela. There's not enough political knowledge to really be entitled to make an objective point about OUR situation. Believe me, you HAVE to live there to get it. Be careful what you say about Chavez. He is an hypocrite. That's for sure. I have experienced it.

And you are not part of the looney right? Please let me hear how you think having one company own all media is not undemocratic.



Whether I am or have been living in Venezuela is irrelevant. I have never met an American telling me I cannot criticize the USA if I have never been there. Yet, every time when I get into a discussion about Hugo Chavez, I hear that argument.

I do not think Hugo Chavez is, what he is often criticized of by his opponents, a dictator. You would have to tell me why you think he is authoritarian, I cannot guess. Although gouchobob gave me some examples. The problem is that most of what is said from the opposition are blatant lies and are easy to respond to, the hard part is that they are so many.

Ruling by decree
Not sure what you mean by this since there are frequent public referendums on major matters. Unless you want to be a hypocrite you should direct your criticism towards the US government. Who, for example, passed the Patriot Act I and II without anyone actually have read it, let alone had a referendum about it.

Shutting down critical media outlets
This is blatant lie, but an effective one. I think what gouchobob is referring to here is RCTV's cable TV license being revoked. They were not shut down, but lost their license due to numerous violations of their contract. Probably done on purpose to discredit the government. The same TV station publicly gave their support to the 2001 coup, hours after it happened. And they are still broadcasting to this day, although not longer on cable. How authoritarian huh?

Abolishing term limitations
I think you mean changing the constitution to allow the president to remain longer in power? Excuse me but don't you do exactly the same in the United States? If you want to change the constitution you just add amendments right? That is exactly what they did in Venezuela, but the only difference they actually had a referendum about it. Therefore making it more democratic than in the United States.

Harassment of opposition politicians and elected officials
Que? The people responsible for the coup attempt in 2001 are not being bars are they? The opposition bashes Chavez all the time and they are still allowed to be on air, have their demonstrations, etc. Who exactly is being harassed by the government?


I recommend you watch this documentary, made by two Irish filmmakers who got caught up in the 2001 coup. It gives you a clear insight what is going on in Venezula:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolution_Will_Not_Be_Televised_(documentary)
http://www.mininova.org/tor/42290

 

[orwellian]

How he has ruined MY country, How he has taken advantage of MY people, and even worst, our vulnerable system.

Since I am not a mind reader; do you mind telling me how he has ruined your country? Because reading Venezuelan history tells me your politicians that used to run your country were totally corrupt, bought and paid for by the U.S government.

I've lived in the states for three years and I don't feel entitled to talk about their politics (yet). Same here in BsAs. I think I haven't gather enough experience to feel opinionated about political situation here.

I think the reason you don't feel "entitled" to speak politics, is because you have no clue what you are talking about.

You HAVE to live there to really understand what's going on in Venezuela. There's not enough political knowledge to really be entitled to make an objective point about OUR situation. Believe me, you HAVE to live there to get it.

Well if you provide me with some arguments why I should believe it, maybe I will. All you say is I have to live there to understand, but you can't even tell me a single reason why it is so bad.

Be careful what you say about Chavez. He is an hypocrite. That's for sure. I have experienced it.

So you care to indulge us with why Chavez is a hypocrite?

 

[Merlinova]

Orwellian:

I really don't understand where are you getting your information from, but it looks like you have never read news from a news agency that is not control by Chavez's government. The only two type of people I have heard with such detachment from reality about the situation of my country are: Ultra-left fanatics or people making a fortune from Chavez's corrupt government.

If you are the first kind (Ultra left fanatic): good for you, nice that you believe in something with such passion, however, I don't understand why you don't move to Cuba or Venezuela and live like the common people, do your lines to get food, live without electricity, work on what the government allows you to work on. The good thing is that there is hope for you and you can start living the way you want to, please move to Cuba or Venezuela.

If you are the second kind (people making a fortune from Chavez's corrupt government): There is no point of arguing with you, you would never want to live in either country, you would never admit to the truth, you will always defend (with no reason) your generous benefactor.

Either way I'll develop my idea a little:

About Chavez being a hypocrite? Don't you think that the fact the he keeps providing the US with almost all our oil production makes him a hypocrite? What's worst than that?

Ah, also please take a look to this "alternative" choice given by the president regarding the energy crisis Venezuela in going through (http://www.ww4report.com/node/7947). Regardless the fact that we have one of the biggest Hydroelectric Plants in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guri_Dam).

http://www.globovision.com/news.php?nid=132158 do you think this is a president to look up to? to be proud of?

Guri, by the way, was planed by one of the presidents (Raul Leoni) that according with the Venezuelan history you are reading, truly ruined our country. Can you name one big project Chavez has put together? With all the money Venezuela has right now?

Another big project executed by these presidents you mentioned, (the ones according to you, were really destroying my country), was SIDOR (Siderúrgica del Orinoco), founded in 1953. This company actually was bought by Techint group in 1997 (60%). They, as one of the biggest steel-makers in the world, took over the company making it very productive. Chavez re-nationalized the company in 2008. He fired all the people that had worked for/with the "argentineans" (as he calls techint/ternium workers), and finger-pointed all the managers straight from his government, politics' people not steel makers). Right now half of the production lines have been shot down. They have had 3 fatal accidents since Venezuela took over the company back. How do I know this? because I used to work there.

That's also why I know the people that are working there haven't been payed in the last three months. Why? well since half of the plant has been shot down, they have nothing to sell. Initially though, they were subsidized by PDVSA's (the oil company) money, however, PDVSA is running out of money as well. He did the same with the oil company back in 2003-2004. Hi fired all the people had worked there for more than 30 years. And now we are lacking people with enough experience to run these kinds of companies. And since Chavez has taken over all the companies in Venezuela (CANTV, PDVSA, EDELCA among others) you do the math.

Chavez is just using socialism as a political flag to keep being the president . Why is that "socialists" are so obsessed with having long presidential periods? Doesn't that make them monarchy like? What's "social" about?

Finally and just to be clear, I answered to your post not because I though you deserved my opinion; you were not polite at all. I just wanted to be sure the rest of the people in this forum have a first hand opinion about what's really going on in Venezuela.

So please do everyone a favor and move to these (according to you) wonderful countries, rule by this amazing and truly honest presidents.

 

[gouchobob]

If you have been following the news out of Venezuela its appears Hugo starting to do away with even the appearance that the country is a democracy.

http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15393502