Fine for overstaying the visa to be increased to 500$ soon

[starlucia]

If a fine increase makes sense please explain why, don't justify some bad decision by the government here by some practice elsewhere(whether or not it makes sense).

Do fine increases ever make sense? The cost of any penalty is totally arbitrary, whether it's 50 pesos or 500. Sounds like the government realized it could make some cash off of the blatantly law-breaking perma-tourists, and to that I say, why not? Should they be afraid of offending the morality of all the poor, exploited lawbreakers? Maybe the fee will be a deterrent to a few, who will either get legal or leave. But the majority of illegal aliens will continue to pay it, because 100 dollars and change is no skin off of their backs. It's just hard for me to have any sympathy for someone who goes to great pains to stay in Argentina illegally, then whines when there's actually some sort of penalty for their behavior. An American passport does not automatically translate ti, "I am above the law in your third-world banana republic, because I bring in dollars."

 

[TrevorCito]

I was simply pointing out your hypocrisy.

And by the way, you didn't complain when people hijacked this thread to blame it on inflation either. Yet now you complain that I changed the subject? Double hypocrisy.

I'm not sure you understood what the inflation post was really saying.

 

[steveinbsas]

I'm not sure you understood what the inflation post was really saying.

Are you sure that you do?

This is a good example of how inflation can also hurt the government. Bracket creep applied to penalties means that the gov receives less revenue unless they adjust penalties for inflation. 50 pesos to 300 and soon 500 speaks more about inflation than immigration policy.

Bracket creep applies to taxpayers who pay higher rates of taxes as their incomes increase to offset inflation (which is caused by goverment printing and spending too much fiat currency in the first place).

 

[TrevorCito]

Are you sure that you do?

Probably not but lets give it a bash anyway

Bracket creep applies to taxpayers who pay higher rates of taxes as their incomes increase to offset inflation (which is caused by goverment printing and spending too much fiat currency in the first place).

Agreed. Good explanation. Not only does inflation cost more through fiat currency devaluation, products cost more and you pay more tax. Theoretically this should self govern inflation through fiscal drag but I'm yet to observe an economy where this happens.

From a governmental perspective, if they don't raise penalties as inflation goes up then earned revenue is reduced. In the case of immigration, raising the penalty means they can operationally continue to pay staff who enforce the law.

The penalty system is also intended to be an alternative to prosecution for two reasons. Investigations and prosecutions are very expensive and it isn't always the right policy to convict every breach of the law for a whole range of social, economic and legal reasons. Imagine if they arrested every scofflaw... the brits tried that over 200 years ago and look how that worked out for them.

 

[steveinbsas]

From a governmental perspective, if they don't raise penalties as inflation goes up then earned revenue is reduced. In the case of immigration, raising the penalty means they can operationally continue to pay staff who enforce the law.

The penalty system is also intended to be an alternative to prosecution for two reasons. Investigations and prosecutions are very expensive and it isn't always the right policy to convict every breach of the law for a whole range of social, economic and legal reasons. Imagine if they arrested every scofflaw... the brits tried that over 200 years ago and look how that worked out for them.

This raises several questions: Who exactly are "staff" who enforce the law regarding overstay visas and how much do they cost? And how often is anyone ever prosecuted for this so-called crime?

Don't the visa violators willingly line (que) up to pay the fine at the airport and just show the receipt when checking in and going through the immigration booths? That can't cost the government very much.

While the purpose of the increase may indeed be to genteate more revenue for, as you put it, a "goverment hurt by inflation" it might actually reduce the number of violations and result in a decrease in revenue from the fines (but I doubt it).

If the fines were actually meant to decrease the number of violations or really punsih the violators, a more appropriate amount might be $1200, double the yearly fee for a temporary resident visa (which trippled in 2009). It would be interesting to see how great a decline in violations would result and if there is an increase or decrease in total revenue generated by the fines.

 

[Liam3494]

Given that this web site only has a small number of users, in comparison to the many thousands of tourists who arrive in BsAs over the year, I wonder how much real revenue is actually received from those that overstay their visas and pay the fine.

The vast majority of tourists come here on short trips, and never get close to overstaying. Those that decide to hang around as "perma-tourists" are regularly on here talking about their Visa runs to Colonia etc., so in truth, how many fines are actually paid in any twelve month period (I'm not expecting an answer as I am sure nobody knows the real figure here, we'd just be guessing), but I would anticipate that the figure is so small that, even with the increase in mind, that revenue is hardly going to solve the Argentine economic problems!

 

[Davidglen77]

Just so everybody knows, not having your residency documents in order in Argentina, is NOT a crime. There are no immigration prisons, detention centers or otherwise. Nobody is detained for not having immigration papers that don't meet the current immigration policies in force. You are considered to have "irregular" immigration status, and, it stays at that, no more no less. I have met many many people here who live years here, have never been to immigration, have no DNI and no CUIL or CUIT. Is this ideal? NO! However there is a large number of people that live this way. Just my 2 cents.

 

[TrevorCito]

Just so everybody knows, not having your residency documents in order in Argentina, is NOT a crime. There are no immigration prisons, detention centers or otherwise. Nobody is detained for not having immigration papers that don't meet the current immigration policies in force. You are considered to have "irregular" immigration status, and, it stays at that, no more no less. I have met many many people here who live years here, have never been to immigration, have no DNI and no CUIL or CUIT. Is this ideal? NO! However there is a large number of people that live this way. Just my 2 cents.

You raise an excellent point. Can anybody here put their hand on the immigration legislation regulations that legalises the current penalty arrangements? If migraciones doesn't have the authority to hit you for $ for overstaying your visa then that would be worth confirming.

Investigator Steve Austin, do you have a few mins to look into it?

 

[steveinbsas]

You raise an excellent point. Can anybody here put their hand on the immigration legislation regulations that legalises the current penalty arrangements? If migraciones doesn't have the authority to hit you for $ for overstaying your visa then that would be worth confirming.

Investigator Steve Austin, do you have a few mins to look into it?

My Spanish isn't really good enough to research this question and I have no experience paying the fine (never went to Colonia, either).

Perhaps one of the "stone cold" Argentine lawyers (Bajo_cero2) can provide the answer.