France's crackdown on Romas continue, hundreds deported

[orwellian]

Not only do we have freedom of movement within EU, but all EU citizens have the same rights throughout the whole union.

 

[AlexfromLA]

I haven't insulted you. It is just obvious to the entire forum that you have a hard on for muslims and I choose not to spend my time reading about it.

This thread isn't about muslims. This thread is about racist and xenophobic government immigration policies in Europe.

Now unless you have some real insight on the subject, this will be my last reply to you.

 

[darmanad]

Racism and xenophobia exists EVERYWHERE, but in South America, the governments actively protect their immigrants, their rights and don't deport them. They give them freedom of movement and dignity.
Now compare that with what the US and the EU are currently doing with their immigrants ? They are scapegoating them and using deportations to rile up their own political bases thereby creating more stigma and xenophobia.

I am not saying this, The United Nations, the Vatican and Amnesty International is saying this.

Ok I've made my point, not going to repeat it again because a few couldn't follow.

Bye bye. BBwolf will be able to pick up the pieces where you left off and do so more intelligently.

Not sure about the EU, but what exactly is the charge against the US? Using deportations to rile up their own politcal bases? Could you explain what that means? If there is selective enforcement of Immigration laws against brown skinned people or anyone else can you cite some credible evidence other than Alex's own insistence? He makes no referrence to specific reportage from UN, Vatican or AI and his infantile insistence on saying "so there" is unconvincing. There is an article in today's NYT about the INS easing off on some deportation proceedings, nothing about ramping them up for "their own political bases." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/us/27immig.html?th&emc=th

Do all South American countries allow all citizens of other So Am countries to become citizens? What about people from other countries? What is the policy towards them? How does that policy differ from the policy of the US ? Is it reasonable for a country into which people eagerly want to immigrate to have policies different than countries that are not sought after by immigrants?

 

[darmanad]

Hungary and Bulgaria are now EU but their people don't have freedom of movement within the EU. These Roma might be holding passports of these countries. Most likely, they hold no papers at all. And while there is doubtless racism and xenophobia at work it's only fair to mention that there is a higher incidence of crime associated with Roma -- they can be found engaged in stealing, pickpocketing and begging throughout Europe.

It appears you are also reluctant to accuse France of racism and xenophobia. If people have no required documentation, wouldn't that be a violation of the law sufficiently serious to support deportation? If you agree that Roma tend to engage in crime more than other groups, why would it be racist much less xenophobic, to enforce the laws on immigration? If the establishment of an illegal encampment indisputably breeds criminal conduct wouldn't it be a disservice to the citizenry not to eliminate it?
Incidentally, how does the EU agreement liberalizing entry into other EU countries support the OP's original position that the EU is xenophobic? Seems to support a contrary position.

Brown-skinned people in general -- from the Middle East and India -- are caught in the net in Europe and North America regardless of whether they are or are not moslem. In this respect the USA is much worse than Europe.

What is the net to which you refer?

Give us a break, Darmanad. It wearies both the eye and the soul to keep reading the same old time and again.

Be like Alex. Skip over it. The text you want to dismiss relates to the original charge of racism alleged in this thread. p.s. Do you really believe that my position on Islam and sharia is inaccurate? And if so, would you care to explain?[/quote]

 

[LAtoBA]

Haha,


The second point you make is the problem. These deportations amount to " collective punishment ". They are deporting families, not criminal gangs. The are deporting men women and children regardless of criminal background.

The EU is still investigating to see how legal or illegal these actions are, even though pretty much every human rights org and the UN have already condemned France's actions.

We will see in the coming weeks just how legal all this was, even though there is no doubt this is immoral and politically motivated. And a democratic government should be above this. It really is a huge stain on the face of Europe and it shows the world the ugly side of government sponsored racism and xenophobia.

You'll get nowhere with this. Europeans (and it's all across the board from Italy to Hungary) have been trying to justify the overt discrimination and prejudice against the Roma people for years by labeling them all "thieves" and "pickpockets"--generalizing here. Conveniently glossing over the long long history of how the Roma have been treated throughout the ages by their European brethren and why many of them happen to dabble in crime today, and concurrently wagging their finger at Americans for its racist past. In my opinion anti-Roma sentiment is much worse than antisemitism in Europe. But that's just my opinion.

 

[orwellian]

You'll get nowhere with this. Europeans (and it's all across the board from Italy to Hungary) have been trying to justify the overt discrimination and prejudice against the Roma people for years by labeling them all "thieves" and "pickpockets"--generalizing here.

Well here lies the problem. Bigbadwolf hinted at this too. Visibly they do stick out in Europe, begging or stealing. But that doesn't mean that they statistically steal a lot more than the average joe. The same goes for Northern Africans. A lot of them rob and steal. But most of them don't. Problem is that if you don't hang out in bars or places where they hang out, you will never get to know they ones that don't rob and steal. And maybe that is even harder with Romas, as chances are you've met many of them already without knowing they actually were gypsies.
So that is probably the main reason for the prejudices against Roma people. Not so much anyone trying to label them, but more what people perceive them as being, judging from experience.

 

[AlexfromLA]

Not really trying to, just posting the news that I saw today regarding the xenophobic and racist policies being implemented by EU countries towards poor EU citizen immigrants. You can draw your own conclusions.

You'll get nowhere with this.

Europe has a history of deep seeded racism and xenophobia, nobody said it didn't. So maybe as you say Europeans are inherently xenophobic. My point in posting this was merely to show that European governments are institutionalizing that racism and xenophobia. Instead of being the voice of reason, they are adding fuel to the fire for political reasons.

In contrast South America welcomes with open arms all it's citizens, poor and wealthy alike.

Two different approaches towards immigration.

So that is probably the main reason for the prejudices against Roma people. Not so much anyone trying to label them, but more what people perceive them as being, judging from experience.

I just find it comical and two faced that EU citizens ( US citizens as well ) treat their own immigrants like trash yet come to South America and expect better treatment.

But that's just me.

 

[bigbadwolf]

These deportations amount to " collective punishment ". They are deporting families, not criminal gangs. The are deporting men women and children regardless of criminal background.

The families and extended families are themselves set up as criminal operations.

Europeans (and it's all across the board from Italy to Hungary) have been trying to justify the overt discrimination and prejudice against the Roma people for years by labeling them all "thieves" and "pickpockets"--generalizing here. Conveniently glossing over the long long history of how the Roma have been treated throughout the ages by their European brethren...

The problem seems to be the criminal and vagrant culture so many Roma grow up in. Also, it's difficult to call them "brethren" -- they seem to have migrated from India about a thousand years ago and like Jewish people, they have kept their own identity. Is there European xenophobia directed at them? Yes. But the Roma are also culpable.

Europe has a history of deep seeded racism and xenophobia, nobody said it didn't. So maybe as you say Europeans are inherently xenophobic. My point in posting this was merely to show that European governments are institutionalizing that racism and xenophobia. Instead of being the voice of reason, they are adding fuel to the fire for political reasons.

Sure. And institutional racism is the most toxic kind. And with economic conditions not too good, migrants make a convenient scapegoat and lightning rod for all sorts of ills.

Incidentally, how does the EU agreement liberalizing entry into other EU countries support the OP's original position that the EU is xenophobic? Seems to support a contrary position.

The EU is a white man's club. Xenophobia has been part of the warp-and-woof of the European outlook for centuries. I'm not criticising it: just commenting on it.

What is the net to which you refer?

By way of anecdote, an academic I know, teaching at an American university -- brown-skinned, moslem name -- had to take his shoes off fourteen times at an American airport. Brown-skinned people, particularly those with moslem names, are subject to careful scrutiny by the authorities, more in the USA than even Europe. They've become the "big other."

 

[LAtoBA]

The problem seems to be the criminal and vagrant culture so many Roma grow up in. Also, it's difficult to call them "brethren" -- they seem to have migrated from India about a thousand years ago and like Jewish people, they have kept their own identity. Is there European xenophobia directed at them? Yes. But the Roma are also culpable.

Sarcasm man, it was sarcasm. I meant to put "brethren" in quotes.

 

[darmanad]

Well here lies the problem... So that is probably the main reason for the prejudices against Roma people. Not so much anyone trying to label them, but more what people perceive them as being, judging from experience.

Let me see if I get your point... it is prejudice to judge someone based upon perceptions about them drawn from direct experience? And all this time I thought prejudice was the formation of an opinion before the facts were known.

Not really trying to, just posting the news that I saw today regarding the xenophobic and racist policies being implemented by EU countries towards poor EU citizen immigrants. You can draw your own conclusions.
Europe has a history of deep seeded racism and xenophobia, nobody said it didn't. So maybe as you say Europeans are inherently xenophobic. My point in posting this was merely to show that European governments are institutionalizing that racism and xenophobia. Instead of being the voice of reason, they are adding fuel to the fire for political reasons.
In contrast South America welcomes with open arms all it's citizens, poor and wealthy alike.
Two different approaches towards immigration.
I just find it comical and two faced that EU citizens ( US citizens as well ) treat their own immigrants like trash yet come to South America and expect better treatment.
But that's just me.

If you want to be taken seriously you need to support your hypotheses with facts and reason. If you are not really trying to make a serious point, but "just posting news" that you saw today and inviting people here to draw their own conclusions, then don't get offended and defensive when others take issue with those unsupported news items, especially something as emotionally charged as accusations of racism and xenophobia in an expat forum.
Neither your post nor your comments in support of it was probative of your claim that "European governments are institutionalizing that racism and xenophobia. Instead of being the voice of reason, they are adding fuel to the fire for political reasons." The Roma eviction simply doesn't prove your point. Ditto for racism and xenophobia in the US.
And I am still waiting to hear about the policy of So Am countries towards people from outside of So Am , eg, Africans, Asians, Mid-Easterners, etc that will prove your point that So Am countries are so much more accommodating to strangers than US and and EU nations. I'm also waiiting for you or someone to dispute the eminently reasonable attitude of certain countries to which many people want to immigrate that they shouldn't have stricter requirements relative to immigration than other countries.

By way of anecdote, an academic I know, teaching at an American university -- brown-skinned, moslem name -- had to take his shoes off fourteen times at an American airport. Brown-skinned people, particularly those with moslem names, are subject to careful scrutiny by the authorities, more in the USA than even Europe. They've become the "big other."

Is this anecdote offered to convince us of racism and xenophobia on the part of US? When I am at the gate of an international flight I hope that Security has concentrated its investigative resources on those types of people which experience has proven are the most dangerous. Moreover, any rational brown-skinned man with a moslem name boarding a plane in an American airport will comprehend the need for Security personnel to check him more carefully than, say, Norwegian grandmothers. Okay, 14 times is bizarre and I wonder what the circumstances were, but please lets not accuse the US or any other governement of racism just because it opts to more carefully scrutinize at airports those who share characteristics with people experience has proven have committed terrorist acts on airplanes.