Future in Argentina

[ReemsterCARP]

@HenryNisental

I think your post lacks some nuance and you demonstrate a selective reading of Argentine history.

First: I wouldn't call Peronism outright neo-fascism. Sure it shares some characteristics with typical fascism, and Perón was an admirer of Mussolini, but from 1945-1955 Argentine wasn't ruled by a fascist regime.

Second:Furthermore, the Marxist ideologies you talk about were never shared by those in power. The more militant left-wing marxists within peronism where countered by armed right wing factions of the Peronist party and the state apparatus.

Third: they also tried capitalism in the neoliberal variant (remember the Menem years?) and it failed as well.

In General
I think the author is referring to the liberation theology -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

What Argentina needs are strong institutions, independent from the government in office. There are excellent examples of more market, and mixed-economy examples of wealthy countries with strong institutions. It's up to the Argentines to make their choice on the economic dimension, but whatever route they'll choose: if they dont strengthen their institutions their plans will collapse.

 

[Matt84]

Christian + Communist

For a moment I thought I got a glimpse of what hell would be like.

As chilly, frightening, not-in-my-worst-nightmares that sounds, I believe Argieboy you've got an excellent point! I don't know so many people who understand how Christian values and Socialist values are basically the same. How Socialism and Communism were Industrial substitutes for a perishing religion.

The first time I read about Christianity and Socialism being the same evil was through Ayn Rand.

Now that you mention it, Argentina is like the perfect place for such a hellish scenario to develop, but I'm afraid you're too late: Isn't Peronism just that?

Or do you aim at some kind of Clerical Fascism like Dollfuss's Austria?

If it's order, not freedom, what you look for, I think that is a marriage made in heaven.

However if you're truly concerned about the moral issues consider that the altruist values of judeo-christian-socialist morality are values of self-sacrifice. Not effort, but sacrifice, (sacred act or work), in other words the horrible but popular appendix of an idea that the more your suffer the better, even if it's to no one's benefit: like the people who mutilate themselves (without hurting other but in some other religions doing it) because they think that pain or blood feeds their god's appetite, or the ones that think that the less they do, the better "society as a whole" will do. How can that be possibly good?

 

[marksoc]

Now that you mention it, Argentina is like the perfect place for such a hellish scenario to develop, but I'm afraid you're too late: Isn't Peronism just that?

So, not only you cite a wacko such as Rand, but also you don't know nothing about Peronism. Peronism is not Socialism, less yet Communism, and it is very very far from being Christian (and especially far from the Church).
I recommend you to visit the Peron "summer" house in San Vicente, to have a grasp of what those years (1945-55) where about.

 

[gouchobob]

Only in Argentina. Lets try another bad idea. I think there are examples close to home that seem to be working, that Argentina could strive for, Uruguay, Chile, Brazil come to mind. Non of these are perfect of course but they seem working better than Argentina.

What's needed here is not a new idea but some responsible leadership that's interested in improving and reforming existing institutions and not just lining their pockets. Until that happens nothing is going to improve. Argentina is a hard case, a complete collapse may be required before any meaningful change will take place.

 

[steveinbsas]

Actually, Christian communism has already had its chance in North America.

Remember the Pilgrims and why they celebrated Thanksgiving?

It was after they abandoned communism and implemented the fundamental principle of a free market: property rights (resulting in agricultural abundance that ended a period of near starvation).

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1285981/posts


http://www.askheritage.org/Issues.aspx?ID=570

 

[gouchobob]

@HenryNisental


What Argentina needs are strong institutions, independent from the government in office. There are excellent examples of more market, and mixed-economy examples of wealthy countries with strong institutions. It's up to the Argentines to make their choice on the economic dimension, but whatever route they'll choose: if they dont strengthen their institutions their plans will collapse.

A good example of the weakness of institutions in Argentina happened just today. Read the article below.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=ajRLO2OsFlPM

 

[Katser]

I actually did my thesis on Catholc socialism in Latin America.

However, I have no idea what the OP is talking about.

To read about what catholic socialism is then type Latin American Liberation Theology into a search engine. Or the name Gustavo Guiterrez. He is a Peruvian priest.

The movement is pretty much dead at the minute and was never really popular in Argentina.

FYI: the movement in the US was mostly centred on the ‘black church’ in what is known as Black liberation theology. However the CIA spent much time trying to surpress the movement in Latin America (specifically during one gathering in Mexico).

Yes it is a whacky idea but was popular for about 15 years.

 

[marksoc]

The Liberation Theology and the Priests for the Third World were pretty known in Argentina. The dictatorship (1976-82) finished that.

 

[Matt84]

So, not only you cite a wacko such as Rand, but also you don't know nothing about Peronism. Peronism is not Socialism, less yet Communism, and it is very very far from being Christian (and especially far from the Church).
I recommend you to visit the Peron "summer" house in San Vicente, to have a grasp of what those years (1945-55) where about.

She was a bright wacko. I would assume that this Christian Socialism would not be Catholic Church friendly (even the -Catholic- Liberation Theology was condemned bluntly by the Vatican). And at the same time this Communism would not be an atheist philosophy. So basically you've got a dominant altruist morality implemented and administered by a government, without ties either to the Church nor to "Internationalist" movements. Isn't that what Peron had? "Tercera Posicion"?

Only in Argentina. Lets try another bad idea. I think there are examples close to home that seem to be working, that Argentina could strive for, Uruguay, Chile, Brazil come to mind. Non of these are perfect of course but they seem working better than Argentina.

What's needed here is not a new idea but some responsible leadership that's interested in improving and reforming existing institutions and not just lining their pockets. Until that happens nothing is going to improve. Argentina is a hard case, a complete collapse may be required before any meaningful change will take place.

I believe the same thing, and yes most likely a complete collapse of the state-funded part of the economy would be needed. But this is how expats make the World a better place: If a country (not even its Government, but a fellow like Argieboy, citizens) has to compete to attract immigration, (just as they have to compete to attract investment), then it will be forced to get better.

Actually, Christian communism has already had its chance in North America.

Remember the Pilgrims and why they celebrated Thanksgiving?

It was after they abandoned communism and implemented the fundamental principle of a free market: property rights (resulting in agricultural abundance that ended a period of near starvation).

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1285981/posts


http://www.askheritage.org/Issues.aspx?ID=570

Thank you for that, and let's remind everybody that before the Pilgrims there was a place called Jamestown.....Americans seem to forget its Corporate foundations just as much as they recall their Theocratic ones.

 

[HenryNisental]

With Menem there was a corrupt form of capitalism, a crony-capitalism. There never was economic freedom. competition ,free imports and exports (Honk Kong -style). All state enterprises were sold to the party that paid the highest bribes.
Even today he is being investigated for cases of corruption, which, by the way, is a way of life here.
Some system like those in Spain or Brazil,would be much a better option.