Help Needed Please
- Thread starter Neal
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I work for a multinational here and all my clients are in that basket also.
I dont think the jobs market is that crash hot anywhere in Argentina at the moment. Particularly if your looking for a job in a multinational or such, many have left / are leaving, and those that have stayed are in crisis mode. The currency controls & import restrictions are wreaking havoc and general government hostility is not a favourable business environment for anyone, let alone them.
Obviously others may have better information specifically on the IT market.
In terms of your spanish, I wouldnt underestimate the required time to achieve fluency in Argentinean spanish. Obviously your english is good but you are not a native and if multinationals want someone for their english you may not be at such an advantage.
Just a question, have you visited Argentina before? Come down here and check it out first if you are trying to select between a few countries to get out. What would your visa options be like in the UK, Canada, Australia, Europe etc?
I dont think the jobs market is that crash hot anywhere in Argentina at the moment. Particularly if your looking for a job in a multinational or such, many have left / are leaving, and those that have stayed are in crisis mode. The currency controls & import restrictions are wreaking havoc and general government hostility is not a favourable business environment for anyone, let alone them.
Obviously others may have better information specifically on the IT market.
In terms of your spanish, I wouldnt underestimate the required time to achieve fluency in Argentinean spanish. Obviously your english is good but you are not a native and if multinationals want someone for their english you may not be at such an advantage.
Just a question, have you visited Argentina before? Come down here and check it out first if you are trying to select between a few countries to get out. What would your visa options be like in the UK, Canada, Australia, Europe etc?
citygirl
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IT professionals are easy to find here. And the vast majority of foreign companies are looking to get out of the Argentine market and hub elsewhere in LATAM.
Having employees here is a PITA. Yes, salaries are much lower than elsewhere in the world but if you add in the aguinaldo, the taxes, the 8283893882 feriados, the restrictive employment laws, the 25% annual raises, etc, etc - there is no sense in having a company base here, esp given the instability. Uruguay and Chile are much better options, even Brasil with high cost is more attractive than Argentina right now. I can say with certainty that of my teams, Argentina was far more expensive at the end of the day than China, India, Slovakia and honestly, not that far off from the US when looking at entry level employees.
To the OP, I'm not sure what made you decide Argentina is the place for you but would always recommend you spend some time here FIRST before making a long-term commitment.
Having employees here is a PITA. Yes, salaries are much lower than elsewhere in the world but if you add in the aguinaldo, the taxes, the 8283893882 feriados, the restrictive employment laws, the 25% annual raises, etc, etc - there is no sense in having a company base here, esp given the instability. Uruguay and Chile are much better options, even Brasil with high cost is more attractive than Argentina right now. I can say with certainty that of my teams, Argentina was far more expensive at the end of the day than China, India, Slovakia and honestly, not that far off from the US when looking at entry level employees.
To the OP, I'm not sure what made you decide Argentina is the place for you but would always recommend you spend some time here FIRST before making a long-term commitment.
Perhaps [background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]computer engineers are well paid just like the food is better here than in Italy, or BA is the Paris of South America?[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]My advice would be to do as much research as possible beforehand. [/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]You might want to spend some time here before choosing to dive in.[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Just out of [/background]curiosity, what makes you think that BA is the place for you?
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]My advice would be to do as much research as possible beforehand. [/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]You might want to spend some time here before choosing to dive in.[/background]
[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Just out of [/background]curiosity, what makes you think that BA is the place for you?
Having been doing business in Argentina the last 6 years, specifically in the software development field, I'd say it's not a great place to start a career in the field, at least not as a foreigner.
6 years ago the development industry here was booming. There were a good number of well-trained developers available. Foreign companies were coming in here like crazy (I was one of them) to take advantage of the half-way decent infrastructure and education, mixed with low prices compared to the States and Europe related to development.
Around 5 years ago it was getting more difficult to find programmers at a cheaper rate. The market was "bubbling" as developers began hopping from company to company, in order to raise their salaries as developers became scarce. As happens in bubbles, companies started paying more to keep people from jumping, but that doesn't really help in the long run The development companies here had some room to move in that as they were paying their developers relatively small (to what they were charging the foreign companies) salaries and had a relatively high profit margin. But those companies were feeling the squeeze and prices to the foreign companies began to raise, Not enough to make it unprofitable, but enough to create a squeeze.
Then everything began falling to crap economically globally. That hurt the industry here, starting in about 2009 or so. Combined with rising salaries for workers and foreign companies slowing down because of the world-wide recession, many of the developers I knew began looking for jobs outside the development companies here when they could.
Now, in the last year or two, with Argentina becoming more and more expensive, the government acting the way it is, etc, more projects have gone elsewhere.
Many foreign companies are finding other places. And it's not just the money, it's also some of the things that are inherent in the culture here - things like people not showing up to work at random, showing up late, lack of a good work ethic for the most part. It's easier to tolerate issues like that when things are cheap. The higher the prices go, the less one can tolerate the inefficiencies that arise here.
I'm not saying there isn't a market here, still - there is. It just isn't what it was 5-7 years ago and getting worse, as is about everything else here economically. I don't things things have actually declined, but the growth has certainly declined. As we have seen in other places, particularly the States in the early 2000's, bubbles tend to burst, even in the IT field. With the direction the government is taking on many things I wouldn't count on the industry growing much more, not too soon, and would count on it shrinking like everything else here. The industry here pretty much depends on the international market - there's not a whole lot of local development needs here that I'm aware of. Slow economic growth internationally isn't going to help things here.
Most of the guys I know now are working telecommuting jobs directly for US companies now. Those are the higher-level developers. I don't really know what happened to the junior guys, I assume they are still continuing on in lower-paying, probably local, jobs.
I have been a bit out of direct touch with the development houses here for a couple of years. Maybe there's something I don't know, but the last thing I would depend on is an article from La Nacion telling us that future prospects are bright here for developers.
Directly to the OP related to moving here - think real hard about this. You will not be able to work for anyone here (in the kind of job you will be seeking) until you have some sort of work visa. I'd be very surprised if there weren't pretty much enough developers here, despite what the La Nacion article says. They mention a need for 7000 new developers a year to handle the demand - that's not really very many people in a growing industry, and those projections are usually based on rosy pictures of straight-line or asymptotic curves that rarely bear any relation to the reality that comes in the future.
I think most companies here are going to hire Argentinos before foreigners, and to get in here and get a job quickly, I think you will need a company to sponsor you. You may be able to find that, but 6 months seems like an awful short time to do so, particularly considering that you don't know Spanish yet. also considering that, as near as I can tell, you have no experience yet.
If you're a quick study you might be moderately conversational in 6 months, I'd think - but I don't know if that's going to cut it. There are a lot of people who speak English here, to varying degrees, particularly in "educated" fields (i.e., a university degree), but I don't know if a company is going to feel comfortable about a programmer who is sitting in meetings and missing half of the content because he's struggling with the more technical aspects of the language. Someone who is merely conversational in Spanish is still missing words in normal conversations and having misunderstandings. I consider myself nearly fluent (my local friends tell me I speak excellent Spanish, but I know what I'm missing), and I live on a daily basis speaking nothing but Spanish except when I talk to a client or a local expat friend. I came here 6 years ago, not quite even conversational in Spanish (having had two years of Spanish in high school some 30 years ago and working in construction in my early twenties, alongside Mexican laborers) and I have a hard time with technical discussions sometimes.
And not to be rude or condescending, or what-have-you, but it's been my experience after a bit more than 20 years in the industry, that almost no one who comes out of any university is ready to sit down and start developing and be productive. There are exceptions, and most of these exceptions are.guys who have been programming nearly since they could read because it's in their blood. Their university degree was a means to an end - to get a job in a field that they are extremely passionate about. I don't know where you stand in the regard, so take that into account when you are thinking that you can convince a local company to sponsor you for a visa, if you have no practical industry experience and don't speak the language fluently.
I really don't want to be pessimistic, and I'll never say you can't do it - but think real hard about it. If you have plenty of money and can afford to come here and live for an extended period of time (I'd say plan for a year at least before you may find a good paying job, maybe longer), then that's a different story. But if you're on a tight budget and don't know much about the culture and the conditions here and are dependent on finding a good job quickly, you may find yourself in worse shape than if you stayed where you are, found a job to start gaining experience and perhaps start learning Spanish in the meantime.
I'd hate to see you end up working some crappy job for a low salary and living in a hovel, wishing you hadn't made the move.
6 years ago the development industry here was booming. There were a good number of well-trained developers available. Foreign companies were coming in here like crazy (I was one of them) to take advantage of the half-way decent infrastructure and education, mixed with low prices compared to the States and Europe related to development.
Around 5 years ago it was getting more difficult to find programmers at a cheaper rate. The market was "bubbling" as developers began hopping from company to company, in order to raise their salaries as developers became scarce. As happens in bubbles, companies started paying more to keep people from jumping, but that doesn't really help in the long run The development companies here had some room to move in that as they were paying their developers relatively small (to what they were charging the foreign companies) salaries and had a relatively high profit margin. But those companies were feeling the squeeze and prices to the foreign companies began to raise, Not enough to make it unprofitable, but enough to create a squeeze.
Then everything began falling to crap economically globally. That hurt the industry here, starting in about 2009 or so. Combined with rising salaries for workers and foreign companies slowing down because of the world-wide recession, many of the developers I knew began looking for jobs outside the development companies here when they could.
Now, in the last year or two, with Argentina becoming more and more expensive, the government acting the way it is, etc, more projects have gone elsewhere.
Many foreign companies are finding other places. And it's not just the money, it's also some of the things that are inherent in the culture here - things like people not showing up to work at random, showing up late, lack of a good work ethic for the most part. It's easier to tolerate issues like that when things are cheap. The higher the prices go, the less one can tolerate the inefficiencies that arise here.
I'm not saying there isn't a market here, still - there is. It just isn't what it was 5-7 years ago and getting worse, as is about everything else here economically. I don't things things have actually declined, but the growth has certainly declined. As we have seen in other places, particularly the States in the early 2000's, bubbles tend to burst, even in the IT field. With the direction the government is taking on many things I wouldn't count on the industry growing much more, not too soon, and would count on it shrinking like everything else here. The industry here pretty much depends on the international market - there's not a whole lot of local development needs here that I'm aware of. Slow economic growth internationally isn't going to help things here.
Most of the guys I know now are working telecommuting jobs directly for US companies now. Those are the higher-level developers. I don't really know what happened to the junior guys, I assume they are still continuing on in lower-paying, probably local, jobs.
I have been a bit out of direct touch with the development houses here for a couple of years. Maybe there's something I don't know, but the last thing I would depend on is an article from La Nacion telling us that future prospects are bright here for developers.
Directly to the OP related to moving here - think real hard about this. You will not be able to work for anyone here (in the kind of job you will be seeking) until you have some sort of work visa. I'd be very surprised if there weren't pretty much enough developers here, despite what the La Nacion article says. They mention a need for 7000 new developers a year to handle the demand - that's not really very many people in a growing industry, and those projections are usually based on rosy pictures of straight-line or asymptotic curves that rarely bear any relation to the reality that comes in the future.
I think most companies here are going to hire Argentinos before foreigners, and to get in here and get a job quickly, I think you will need a company to sponsor you. You may be able to find that, but 6 months seems like an awful short time to do so, particularly considering that you don't know Spanish yet. also considering that, as near as I can tell, you have no experience yet.
If you're a quick study you might be moderately conversational in 6 months, I'd think - but I don't know if that's going to cut it. There are a lot of people who speak English here, to varying degrees, particularly in "educated" fields (i.e., a university degree), but I don't know if a company is going to feel comfortable about a programmer who is sitting in meetings and missing half of the content because he's struggling with the more technical aspects of the language. Someone who is merely conversational in Spanish is still missing words in normal conversations and having misunderstandings. I consider myself nearly fluent (my local friends tell me I speak excellent Spanish, but I know what I'm missing), and I live on a daily basis speaking nothing but Spanish except when I talk to a client or a local expat friend. I came here 6 years ago, not quite even conversational in Spanish (having had two years of Spanish in high school some 30 years ago and working in construction in my early twenties, alongside Mexican laborers) and I have a hard time with technical discussions sometimes.
And not to be rude or condescending, or what-have-you, but it's been my experience after a bit more than 20 years in the industry, that almost no one who comes out of any university is ready to sit down and start developing and be productive. There are exceptions, and most of these exceptions are.guys who have been programming nearly since they could read because it's in their blood. Their university degree was a means to an end - to get a job in a field that they are extremely passionate about. I don't know where you stand in the regard, so take that into account when you are thinking that you can convince a local company to sponsor you for a visa, if you have no practical industry experience and don't speak the language fluently.
I really don't want to be pessimistic, and I'll never say you can't do it - but think real hard about it. If you have plenty of money and can afford to come here and live for an extended period of time (I'd say plan for a year at least before you may find a good paying job, maybe longer), then that's a different story. But if you're on a tight budget and don't know much about the culture and the conditions here and are dependent on finding a good job quickly, you may find yourself in worse shape than if you stayed where you are, found a job to start gaining experience and perhaps start learning Spanish in the meantime.
I'd hate to see you end up working some crappy job for a low salary and living in a hovel, wishing you hadn't made the move.
Rich One
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Interesting article ...!! however the only salary quoted is of a 24 year old IT girl making $6200 pesos a Good Salary?? Guess is good compared to India. Barely enough here for a bachelor...!
My conserje makes $6000 pesos, without H.S. Diploma, he washes the vereda..!!
When I first started employing programmers here, 6200 pesos a month is what the middle and lower higher level guys were making. At the time, the rate was around 3-1 pesos to dollars and was a bit over $2000 USD. Now, that salary according to the official rate near $1300 USD a month, or at the real (i.e. blue) rate is $968 USD a month. The guys I know working for US companies telecommuting are making around $5000 USD a month - still cheap for a high level developer there.
As the peso depreciates and inflation increases, the real salaries go down, down, down and people like the guys I know who are "real" programmers find their own jobs in markets where they can earn real money. That doesn't say anything good for the market here...
As the peso depreciates and inflation increases, the real salaries go down, down, down and people like the guys I know who are "real" programmers find their own jobs in markets where they can earn real money. That doesn't say anything good for the market here...
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