Here's Another Crime Story.

[expatinowncountry]

Expatinowncountry, I'm amazed by you. But I don't criticize you, I know you're stating your conscience and that is valid. I also understand how everything we hear affects our judgment and our decisions. It has happened to me. But I'm trying to look at what you said with logic and not emotion or conditioning.

In my normal environment, if someone breaks in my house and intends to rape my daughter, that man will meet his maker in a hurry. It wouldn't even take thinking it through. When it comes down between my family and them, the perp doesn't have a prayer.

I can't understand anyone who would do less for their family. See what I mean? We are on different wave lengths entirely, you and I. I try to live in the real world, not one I wish for. And not one I am brainwashed into. This Argentine man (a successful, professional guy, not from Boca) has told me stories of people seeing their child or wife raped here in BA and being helpless to stop it. He told me of one case where they had a home invasion, after they went through the house for several hours they decided to rape the young girl. There was a firearm hidden, the father feigned a heart attack, through that managed to get the pistol and started shooting. The perps were armed and he himself took some bullets but he survived, though one was in his kneecap. But his daughter was not gang raped. He protected his family! Kudos to that man. I'd do the same and I wouldn't hesitate and I'm a WOMAN! People in my home country are being brainwashed in the same way against firearms. Chicago is a great example. Laws there made owning a firearm illegal, a gun-free zone they called it, and it is the capitol of violent crime in America. Washington D.C. (also gun-free at one time but that has now changed) used to take the prize.

So let's all use our logic. Is that what we want in our country and for our families? I'd say not.

As I said, culture matters a lot. I can see your logic, that is, the structure of your reasoning. However, the structure of your propositions says nothing about its content and on the validity of your deductive reasoning. I think the content of your proposition are very much affected by your culture. And well, the validity of your inference is something that could be argued. In any case, my observation was more anthropological than anything else. I was not passing judgement on you or any other gun owner. I personally do not know anyone in my home country who owns a gun. I know a few people in Argentina who own guns and when I lived in the States I knew a lot of people who owned gun. My sample is probably not representative and I guess no one in my country who owns a gun will be outspoken like my American colleagues were. Again, I think my point is still valid, culture (and history) matters a lot... otherwise, you would not have written in your Constitution the right to own guns! I am not an expert on Constitutional Law but how many constitutions around the world has such a right written on them?

 

[arlean]

I agree, expat, and I realize we each need to live with integrity as we see it. The biggest argument I have against firearms comes from a Swiss woman who's been here for 14 years, and every home in Switzerland, where she grew up, is armed by law. I think our founders put that in the Constitution because they were fleeing oppression (I've read some of the history of the Anabaptists and it was horrific) and they saw what happens when oppressors (or perpetrators) have the power and the people are helpless. If there is no oppressor, that's one thing, but once one of them does gain power, it's a game changer.

Our founders intended for the country to never come under dictatorship. But I have learned that if you control the minds of people, it is the same as controlling the firearms. Or better. You have a similar advantage as people abandon logic for what they hear constantly. The biggest battle is the battle for the mind, not for the weapons, or so I think. That's why we all need to learn to THINK and not parrot. We are told the same stuff over and over and we tend to parrot what we hear most. Marketers use that fact of how the mind works with most people--a lot! And it is very successful. I believe thinking is a learned skill that we learn by doing, just like anything else. Public school encourages us to parrot, not think. At some point we have to break out of that and practice thinking.

When we think, we don't necessarily accept what is told to us again and again and repeat it, but we apply our good logic to decide if it makes sense. A parrot merely reflects what he hears all or most of the time. He usually doesn't know why he thinks it. He just "knows." He doesn't know why--or usually care. For that reason I am very open to logic that goes against my own. I don't believe that we should object to a viewpoint (and so I don't) that is different, if logic accompanies it, because considering opposing logic helps us to think. Or so I think anyway. If cities where people are heavily armed have little or no crime, and "gun-free" zones have high crime, logic tells me that making firearms illegal is illogical. These are just things to consider. Yet the battle for the mind is going on in the US just like everywhere else. This is how I see it from where I sit. Okay, off to work I go, I've loved the discussion. You guys and gals are great!

 

[Splitty]

Expatincountry: If some plans on hurting my family I wouldn't have a second thought about taking any action necessary. ie: Keep you head, lose theirs!

If anyone wants to get a gun licence you can start here: http://www.renar.gov.ar/
Takes about 6 months with many hoops to jump through.

 

[expatinowncountry]

Expatincountry: If some plans on hurting my family I wouldn't have a second thought about taking any action necessary. ie: Keep you head, lose theirs!

If anyone wants to get a gun licence you can start here: http://www.renar.gov.ar/
Takes about 6 months with many hoops to jump through.

I understand your point. Now, I live in Buenos Aires where the murder rate is 6 per 100,000 per year. Probably in my neighborhood is about 1 per 100,000. Assume all those murders are because of breaking in (and not domestic disputes, economic crime, drugs dispute, etc). Then I need to evaluate my success rate. Assume that 50% of the time I kill the intruder (despite him/her having the surprise factor in his/her favor) and he does not kill me or my family. So, the likelihood of the event happening where I successfully "win" is around 1 in 200,000 per year. Those are the expected benefits of having the gun. Now let me consider the cost of this. What is the likelihood one of my kids finds the gun and shot himself? Or that my wife kills me or I kill her thinking that I was/she was an intruder. How about killing an intruder who has no intention but to take my laptop... would the punishment he receives proportional to the crime? Consider other cost like the registration of the gun, its monetary cost, or the feeling of having taking someone else life, or just the thinking that I may do it. The possibility of doing time in an Argentine prison? When I start comparing expected costs and benefits, in my case the decision is simple. If you consider the fact that most robberies that finish with someone at home hurt is because of resistance, you would like to think it twice.

Of course, if I knew that someone wants to delivery hurt my family, I'm like you, will not have second thoughts. However, I really do not see why people would plan to hurt my family. It may happened, but not as part of a plan.

 

[Splitty]

I understand your point. Now, I live in Buenos Aires where the murder rate is 6 per 100,000 per year. Probably in my neighborhood is about 1 per 100,000. Assume all those murders are because of breaking in (and not domestic disputes, economic crime, drugs dispute, etc). Then I need to evaluate my success rate. Assume that 50% of the time I kill the intruder (despite him/her having the surprise factor in his/her favor) and he does not kill me or my family. So, the likelihood of the event happening where I successfully "win" is around 1 in 200,000 per year. Those are the expected benefits of having the gun. Now let me consider the cost of this. What is the likelihood one of my kids finds the gun and shot himself? Or that my wife kills me or I kill her thinking that I was/she was an intruder. How about killing an intruder who has no intention but to take my laptop... would the punishment he receives proportional to the crime? Consider other cost like the registration of the gun, its monetary cost, or the feeling of having taking someone else life, or just the thinking that I may do it. The possibility of doing time in an Argentine prison? When I start comparing expected costs and benefits, in my case the decision is simple. If you consider the fact that most robberies that finish with someone at home hurt is because of resistance, you would like to think it twice.

Of course, if I knew that someone wants to delivery hurt my family, I'm like you, will not have second thoughts. However, I really do not see why people would plan to hurt my family. It may happened, but not as part of a plan.

Also I am going hunting next weekend in the campo. Hopefully I will be eating bacon/jalapeno wrapped dove breast this coming week. Another reason to own a gun.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

Also I am going hunting next weekend in the campo. Hopefully I will be eating bacon/jalapeno wrapped dove breast this coming week. Another reason to own a gun.

"Dove"? Did someone say "dove?" This is my hunting sport - and in Argentina! This is much more interesting than debating whom you can and can't trust.

http://youtu.be/ZxQPOsDgPO4

 

[kerriem]

Expatinowncountry, I'm amazed by you. But I don't criticize you, I know you're stating your conscience and that is valid. I also understand how everything we hear affects our judgment and our decisions. It has happened to me. But I'm trying to look at what you said with logic and not emotion or conditioning.

In my normal environment, if someone breaks in my house and intends to rape my daughter, that man will meet his maker in a hurry. It wouldn't even take thinking it through. When it comes down between my family and them, the perp doesn't have a prayer.

I can't understand anyone who would do less for their family. See what I mean? We are on different wave lengths entirely, you and I. I try to live in the real world, not one I wish for. And not one I am brainwashed into. This Argentina man (a successful, professional guy, not from Boca) has told me stories of people seeing their child or wife raped here in BA and being helpless to stop it. He told me of one case where they had a home invasion, after they went through the house for several hours they decided to rape the young girl. and who knows if they might have killed them all.

There was a firearm hidden, the father feigned a heart attack, through that managed to get the pistol and started shooting. The perps were armed and he himself took some bullets but he survived, though one was in his kneecap. But his daughter was not gang raped. He protected his family! Kudos to that man. I'd do the same and I wouldn't hesitate and I'm a WOMAN! People in my home country are being brainwashed in the same way against firearms. Chicago is a great example. Laws there made owning a firearm illegal, a gun-free zone they called it, and it is the capitol of violent crime in America. Washington D.C. (also gun-free at one time but that has now changed) used to take the prize.

So let's all use our logic. Is that what we want in our country and for our families? I'd say not.

Brain washed against owning fire arms? More like brain washed into thinking that you need to own one! To the rest of the world the USA looks crazy. In Australia we have very strict gun laws and consequently very few people own one. And guess what? We don't worry about our kids being shot at school nor do I worry about being shot at the shops, the cinema or any other public event. I don't worry about anyone breaking into my house with a gun to rape me at gun point because so few people have guns that it is not worth even entertaining the thought. The less guns in the world the safer we will all be. And I can see the rebuts to this argument now. But more fire arms are not the answer. In Australia we don't need to arm our teachers and I don't need to sleep with a gun under my pillow because no one else is armed and funnily enough our kids and the rest of us are safe.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

I don't worry about anyone breaking into my house with a gun to rape me at gun point because so few people have guns that it is not worth even entertaining the thought.

You must be one heck of a hand-to-hand fighter.

Seriously, what comes through in anti-gun arguments is the same kind of frenzied energy that I hear from people who are sure the civilized world is coming to an end after Christmas and they think they need to have 30 assault rifles and 100,000 rounds of ammo to fend off the Walking Dead. You just sit on the other side of the argument. And, neither side is really thinking about the issue.

It's not that we Americans "need" to own firearms. It is that we can and we have a choice. If you think Australia is somehow immune to idiots doing insane things with firearms just because you have "strict gun laws" I think you are mistaken. We didn't have mass killings in the US when I was growing up and we all had guns. It is a sign of the times I'm afraid.

 

[mc kenna]

So lemme get this straight,if you ban firearms you are safer???i got an idea let's ban cocaine so that way we win the war on drugs!!!oh wait it's been done,didn't work.If Australians don't think they need to have guns fine by me.But i dislike the idea of an unarmed man trying to defend his family against 4 unarmed thugs.....mmmm only just only if he had a gun he coulda have a fighting chance.You see no matter how tough you are ,all it takes is 2 bigger guys and now you are facing a fight you are gonna lose.In order to be judged by a court of law to see if your actions are justified, first of all you must be alive.I pick being judged and maybe'' face the music'' than being a dead obedient citizen that didn't armed himself because your gov't don't allow you.

 

[stevec]

Public school encourages us to parrot, not think.

Abject, elitist nonsense. Dare I suggest a bit of Bourdieu? Pathetic.