How is it that so many Argentinians can move to the US?

[Girino]

I'd imagine most of it would be family re-unification type visas

I thought those took decades... You can sponsor a spouse, even as a permanent resident, but it takes min. 2 years. If it is a sibling, parent, etc. it's 10 years.

I am just reading La Nación and I don't know where they take their numbers from, which is why it is not very clear how is that everybody and their mother are moving to the US.

 

[ChalecoVerde]

I thought those took decades... You can sponsor a spouse, even as a permanent resident, but it takes min. 2 years. If it is a sibling, parent, etc. it's 10 years.

I am just reading La Nación and I don't know where they take their numbers from, which is why it is not very clear how is that everybody and their mother are moving to the US.

Where do you see the 212k figure? I think net immigration into the US is about 1 million a year. Certainly not 1/5th of those are from Argentina!
I see this 222k tourist visas. Probably a significant number overstay and work off the books but not more than 20%!

"Solo confirman que la tasa de aceptación de las estampas B1/B2 (turismo/negocios) en 2019 fue del 97,9% (se emitieron en la Argentina más de 222.000 visas B1/B2, el 2,5% mundial). "

 

[nikad]

I think that within those 220.000 you have two extra zeros. Just for the sake of it, you could even ask the US embassy in Arg to see if they would give you any official figures.

 

[Girino]

Wow 212K from a population of 40M is incredible. I'd imagine most of it would be family re-unification type visas. Seems every other person I meet in every part of the world has a relative in the US. Where did the 212,400 figure come from?

En 2019 hubo alrededor de un millón de argentinos que emigraron de Argentina y en doble de inmigrantes que llegó al país
La emigración de la Argentina se ha dirigido especialmente a España, donde van el 25,65%, Estados Unidos, el 21,24% y seguido de lejos por Chile, el 7,18%. [https://www.lanacion.com.ar/economia/negocios/inmigracion-vs-emigracion-nid2508878]


21,24% of 1 million

 

[Renzi]

How significant do you think the brain drain has been from Argentina to Chile, Brazil, Spain, Italy, USA during the past 20 years?

I wonder what the actual numbers are, but from my recent experience at a major US university, it seems far less significant that the brain drain coming South Asia. There is a lot of social and family pressure to get educated then established in the US in order to bring the rest their families over later on. The few Latin Americans I knew were on scholarships (Costa Rica, for instance, subsidizes study abroad for some fields) and still had plans to eventually return to their home countries.

 

[ChalecoVerde]

En 2019 hubo alrededor de un millón de argentinos que emigraron de Argentina y en doble de inmigrantes que llegó al país
La emigración de la Argentina se ha dirigido especialmente a España, donde van el 25,65%, Estados Unidos, el 21,24% y seguido de lejos por Chile, el 7,18%. [https://www.lanacion.com.ar/economia/negocios/inmigracion-vs-emigracion-nid2508878]


21,24% of 1 million

Ah the sneaky photo caption.
1 million out of 40 million seems very wrong. 2.5% emigration is an exodus. I'm thinking they are counting people who left on tourist visas. Matches with the 222k tourist visas given out by the US consulate. You have to assume 95% of those return.

 

[antipodean]

Interesting, seems you have to buy a business for 100-150k but you can finance up to 30% of it. People probably buy Dunkin Donut type franchises or set up a laundromat and exaggerate their expenses by 50%.

Many people from all over the world do this - I personally know numerous persons from various countries who have done exactly that. If you have money the US is one of the easiest countries to get residency.

To your point about the numbers without arguing an exact figure.

How does Argentina get the number of emigrants? They self-report to Argentine authorities (e.g. AFIP) they are moving to country X to end tax residency in Argentina, as one would in any country that does not collect exit data on travellers. These people could document they have been out of Argentina for a certain period of time and have a residence (address) abroad as to my knowledge there is no requirement to show legal residency status of another country. US visa data is simply irrelevant to the Argentine emigration data.

For example, many well-off Argentines do own properties in the US however do not have permanent residency visas. Perhaps some of these people are being counted even though they are not technically migrants and may spend part of the year in Argentina (or elsewhere) to stay within their visa limits. Not to mention the non-permanent visa holders like students or short term workers which will make them non-residents from an Argentine perspective.

Using Spain as an example in 2020 INE (Spanish government statistics) reported about 90,000 Argentine citizens getting residency visas there in the first part of the year. However the majority of Argentines living in Spain have EU passports and are not included in these stats since Spanish nationals cannot be counted as migrants and Italian nationals are counted as Italian / EU migrants. Still it is not quite at its peak of 152,000 in 2005... but is well above the 20,000 figure that was common before 2002. The brain and perhaps, more importantly, capital drain is very, very real.

 

[ChalecoVerde]

I wonder what the actual numbers are, but from my recent experience at a major US university, it seems far less significant that the brain drain coming South Asia. There is a lot of social and family pressure to get educated then established in the US in order to bring the rest their families over later on. The few Latin Americans I knew were on scholarships (Costa Rica, for instance, subsidizes study abroad for some fields) and still had plans to eventually return to their home countries.

I'd think you would not notice it so much from the US side cause they'd get distributed throughout the larger population over 20 years. But I'm wondering how noticeable it is from Argentina's side, e.g. is there a shortage of doctors, engineers compared to before 2000?

 

[Renzi]

Mexicans would crush argentines with respect to work ethic. I miss all my mexican crews in the field when I have to deal with the local workforce.

If only work ethic alone were enough to lift people out of poverty. Mexicans, including those who are first or second generations US citizens, comparatively have some of the worst rates of upward mobility among all other immigrant groups, and a large number of them aren't even immigrants, per se, but only plan to work (with or without papers) in the US for a few years while sending remitances back home.

 

[ChalecoVerde]

Many people from all over the world do this - I personally know numerous persons from various countries who have done exactly that. If you have money the US is one of the easiest countries to get residency.

To your point about the numbers without arguing an exact figure.

How does Argentina get the number of emigrants? They self-report to Argentine authorities (e.g. AFIP) they are moving to country X to end tax residency in Argentina, as one would in any country that does not collect exit data on travellers. These people could document they have been out of Argentina for a certain period of time and have a residence (address) abroad as to my knowledge there is no requirement to show legal residency status of another country. US visa data is simply irrelevant to the Argentine emigration data.

For example, many well-off Argentines do own properties in the US however do not have permanent residency visas. Perhaps some of these people are being counted even though they are not technically migrants and may spend part of the year in Argentina (or elsewhere) to stay within their visa limits. Not to mention the non-permanent visa holders like students or short term workers which will make them non-residents from an Argentine perspective.

Using Spain as an example in 2020 INE (Spanish government statistics) reported about 90,000 Argentine citizens getting residency visas there in the first part of the year. However the majority of Argentines living in Spain have EU passports and are not included in these stats since Spanish nationals cannot be counted as migrants and Italian nationals are counted as Italian / EU migrants.

An Argentinian can get a tourist visa to Spain, vacation there for a few weeks and use that to declare to AFIP that they are no longer a resident? Wouldn't his return be recorded by immigrations and checked by AFIP? Here's an idea - Argentina needs a worldwide tax on citizens.