how people live?

[Amargo]

I still keep to my opinion: whereas in the US or the most developed countries of Europe people go shopping as a way of having fun, MIDDLE CLASS (and of course people with low/no income) prefer to spend more time with family and friends sitting in the garden, drinking mate, beer, cooking an asado or whatever.
Also the idea of throwing something away- although it is perfectly working- just because there is a new model does not exist in Argentina. Not so in industrialised countries, which is shameful.
Anyways, I am a long-time expat, when I arrived here there was no Palermo Soho/Hollywood, etc, so I have/could/had to integrate into the Argentine society very quickly. On this observations I base my opinions.

Argentines are not to blame for one's failure to adapt to the country, never forget that. It is their country, not yours.
I simply cannot understand when expats use pejorative expressions towards Argentines/Argentina just because THEY are unable to adapt to Argentina (like the VERY original Argen-tiny of alpac). After all, all of us shopuld be grateful to Argentina and the Argentines for giving us the opportunity to live in this wonderful country.

 

[citygirl]

Seriously Amagro - go to a mall sometime. Trust me when I tell you it will be packed and not with extranjeros. Middle class - actually most people - shop more than almost anyone I know. And again, that's not contained to Cap Fed. I go to the mall out here when I need something from jumbo and it is insane the amount of shopping going on. People are spending money like water and appear to to enjoying themselves while doing it.

(I def agree that people don't throw things out here like they do in the US but again, I think that's a factor of economics, not some higher consciousness. They resell/repair b/c it makes financial sense to do so, not because it's the "right" thing to do)

And pishaw - I respect Argentina, it is home. But I hardly feel I should bow down and be grateful to Argentina and Argentines for allowing me to live here It's not exactly a one way street. I contribute quite a bit economically to this country, I employee 15 people, I buy a lot of things here so yeah.. maybe Argentina and all the Argentines should be grateful to me for coming here LOL - joking about the latter but seriously, most of us who have been here for a long time are well-vested in the community here and have just as much right to call out the BS when we see it as anyone else.

 

[steveinbsas]

(I def agree that people don't throw things out here like they do in the US but again, I think that's a factor of economics, not some higher consciousness. They resell/repair b/c it makes financial sense to do so, not because it's the "right" thing to do)

Fortunatley, the vast majority of people in the US donate the stuff they don't want to charities like The Salvation Army, Goodwill, St Vincent Depaul, and Deseret Industires (in adition to hundreds of small "thrift shops" operated by charitable organizations).

And pishaw - I respect Argentina, it is home.

Just wanted to note that there is no "I' in pshaw... but there is in Argenitna.

 

[surfing]

Seriously Amagro - go to a mall sometime. Trust me when I tell you it will be packed and not with extranjeros. Middle class - actually most people - shop more than almost anyone I know. And again, that's not contained to Cap Fed. I go to the mall out here when I need something from jumbo and it is insane the amount of shopping going on. People are spending money like water and appear to to enjoying themselves while doing it.

(I def agree that people don't throw things out here like they do in the US but again, I think that's a factor of economics, not some higher consciousness. They resell/repair b/c it makes financial sense to do so, not because it's the "right" thing to do)

And pishaw - I respect Argentina, it is home. But I hardly feel I should bow down and be grateful to Argentina and Argentines for allowing me to live here It's not exactly a one way street. I contribute quite a bit economically to this country, I employee 15 people, I buy a lot of things here so yeah.. maybe Argentina and all the Argentines should be grateful to me for coming here LOL - joking about the latter but seriously, most of us who have been here for a long time are well-vested in the community here and have just as much right to call out the BS when we see it as anyone else.

Citygirl, I agree with your comments completely. Like I always tell my Argentine SO: "It's my country too!"

 

[arlean]

I have not figured out all the problems with Argentina (though I find this subject very interesting) but about wages, I am amazed by the numbers of holidays here. I am told by locals that they are mandated by the government and employers have no choice in the matter. I imagine people think the government is forcing the employers to do more for them, not realizing that the employer simply pays less over all. One has to be productive to receive income. Having lived and worked in the US all my life, I am continually amazed by this.

I also am told of other laws that cause employers to avoid having employees altogether or to try to employ only their own families. I feel so sorry for the Argentina people. But any thoughts or comments on this?

 

[marksoc]

Having lived and worked in the US all my life, I am continually amazed by this.

Do not go to France then, you will have a seizure. The added holidays were created because the 2-week paid vacations in the law are really not enough to maintain your sanity in the workplace, and they also benefit many areas in the country that live on tourism. I expect that these holidays will increase productivity and decrease turnover and stress.

 

[Crema Americana]

I've been wondering ... things made in ARG is expensive for poor quality, we pay double or triple for a product, but the salary of employee's of the company who make the products are half of other countries. Where the money goes?

Money always goes to and comes from the top.

Wages in Argentina are low compared to other more industrialized countries, but they're high compared to China. That makes locally produced goods more expensive than other countries who import on the cheap. There's a hefty VAT tax on everything, plus whatever other taxes apply. Labor laws aren't business friendly, so that adds cost as well... not to mention all the other obstacles to running a business here. Work ethic isn't the best either, but that's another matter.

At least people are employed, but using protectionist policies and favoring labor too much to keep jobs has its costs. While more people are working, inflation is rising at a faster pace making it harder to make ends meet on a limited budget. Wages go up for some, but it's barely keeping up. This isn't a problem limited to Argentina, but the runaway inflation and devaluation of the peso are... and there's no way at this point in time that Argentina can provide its citizens with all the products and goods it needs. Despite clamping down on imports and making it near impossible to get anything in, imports are a necessity... even for the local industry. Those imports being more costly makes local products more costly as well.

Anyway, economics is confusing and there's a lot of factors... I don't pretend to know it it all. Argentina's trade relationship status with the rest of the world: "It's Complicated."

 

[ElQueso]

The belief (whether within a foreigner listening to Argentine friends, or within Argentinos themselves) that Argentines gladly give up material things for family, friends and asado is a bit silly. I can understand someone who doesn't have much experience here hearing that and believing it, at least for awhile, but true experience after a time immersed in the culture teaches one that this is hardly the case.

The truth is that most Argentinos ACCEPT things the way they are. They bitch and moan (except maybe those who are not upper or middle class true believers in Peronism, or poor and nearly completely ignorant of the wool being pulled over their eyes by those in power) but they accept.

They accept crappy schools. They accept crappy selections in the supermarkets. They accept crappy service from waiters and other service providers. They accept crappy quality of produced products. They accept high prices and inflation. Who can count the number of things that are accepted but not enjoyed?

All they have control over is their families and the weekend asados. Maybe they are truly happy with that, but it is because they choose not to demand more. Is that a virtue or a necessity?

The idea that the only thing that Americans (from the US) have, or are interested in, is materialistic greed is ludicrous and not a little bit of guarded jealousy.

I lived for nearly twenty years in two different middle class suburban neighborhoods in Houston, and while I was going to school, in the 5th ward slum. Yes, I liked material things - they were available and affordable (when I got older and made more money) and why shouldn't I? I busted my ass for it!

But guess what we did on the weekends? We had barbeques with the family and friends (yeah, even in the 5th ward slum). We'd be out in the yard cutting it to make our homes look nice on the weekends (ok, this not so much in the slum, to be fair), and someone would haul out a cooler filled with cold beer at the end of the day and the next thing you know, people were drifting over, someone was runnig up to the super market and buying some meat and chips and what-have-you and a block party sprang up out of nowhere!

Our entire neighborhood knew each other. We had about 300 homes! 2 swimming pools in the neighborhood. I lived in a barrio cerrado out near Pilar for two years and I couldn't get to know anyone out there because everyone was so stand-offish and kept to themselves, having friends from work or school that they'd knitted into a close-knit clique and was difficult to break into, at least as a foreigner.

Yes, many families are scattered in the States, but that has a lot to do with opportunities of a kind so different than what's available here. That doesn't mean that no one gives a crap about families - it just means they are not in constant contact. But even then, my folks lived in St Louis but still managed to come see us 3-4 times a year. My uncle still lived in Houston, my grandmother as well. We didn't not care about them, but we also didn't have to live with them because there was no other place to go. We had the ability to make something out of our own lives. It was something my father pressed into my brother and I - the point of raising kids should be to do the best to make sure they have more opportunities and have a better life than the parents who raised them.

I hear this crap all the time how the "important" things in life here are so much better than in the States. I don't buy it.

People are so tied into one another here because they have absolutely nothing else to hope for. Kids live with their parents sometimes for a decade or MORE because it is so difficult to get out of the house and live on your own. Buenos Aires, I've heard, has the highest number of psychiatrists per capita in the world. I don't know fi that's a fact, but I know a LOT of people who see them on a regular basis.

Please.

And don't even talk to me about how kids are raised by MANY here, at least in Cap Fed (and maybe just in the more affluent neighborhoods?). My wife and I have her younger sister living with us and going to school here. She is doing so only because the opportunities in Paraguay, where they are from, are even poorer than they are here.

But most of her Argentine friends spend all of their time partying and worrying about having fun and their parents not only ALLOW it but actually SUPPORT IT! Kids here as young as 13 start going out at night to juvenile clubs, mirroring the same thing many of the younger adults (and even older ones) do - partying all night long on the weekends and then dragging their asses to school on Monday, spending a day o two recovering, not worrying about studying and making good grades, but rather who is hosting the next party, or which club they are going to in the coming weekend.

I mean damn - high school graduates have all night parties in the middle of the week and many of the younger kids in the school go to their school's graduating class party, as well as many of the other schools as they can get invited to. Our school actually sent a notice home to the parents (I was pleasantly surprised at this) letting us know that throwing up and sleeping in school the day after a party was not to be tolerated and the offending kid would be sent home!

My sister-in-law, who is now 16, is going to a private Catholic school, one of the better ones in Capital Federal (middle-level, not one of these $700 USD a month schools for the rich).

In her class from last year, out of some 50 students, 11 DIDN'T PASS THE YEAR and will be repeating 3rd year!!!! And the chances they have to pass are astounding. If they don't pass a class, they have December before the holidays to take a test and pass (with 60%) to pass the class for that year. If they don't pass, they have another opportunity in March or end of February to pass agian. They only repeat the year if they don't pass 3 or more of their classes for the year! My sister-in-law has a couple of friends who are still carrying failed classes with them (one reportedly as many as 11?!) from previous years where they fell under the limit of three failures to repeat but have not yet had to make up the classes.

One of her friends is 18. She has repeated 3rd year twice previously, and this year failed again. Her parents don't make sure she studies - they just keep on letting things go until it reaches a critical point and now they are pulling her from school as a waste of money.

I could go on and on about things like this but I'm getting tired of writing

The fact is, tolerating a low-level of existence to be with families and friends and have asado is an excuse. If the people choose to live like that, fair enough. But don't start criticising other countries who do give a rat's ass and call them materialistic because they live better as a result!

Another thing - watch out, United States. A similar future is on the way as more and more people vote themselves programs as "owed to them" instead of listening to the constitution carefuly when it says the right to "pursue" happiness, not the right to HAVE happiness. The government HAS to treat ALL people equitably and fairly, but that doesn't mean that people who don't study and work hard are entitled to live as well as people who DO SO.

I worked my way through college with three freaking jobs and still didn't finish with a degree. I worked my ass off when I joined the work force and I deserve the materialistic things that my hard work paid for.

Ok, done. Sorry, sometimes I just get set off by concepts such as Argentinos living such full and satisfied lives while all US Americans are idiots only interested in materlistic greed.

Who says you can't live well and still enjoy family, friends and asado?

 

[elhombresinnombre]

The belief...

...and asado?

Thoughtful and intelligent. I for one appreciate it when you take the trouble to express yourself at length and so eloquently. I've missed your contributions during your recent absences from the board too.

 

[alpac]

I simply cannot understand when expats use pejorative expressions towards Argentines/Argentina just because THEY are unable to adapt to Argentina (like the VERY original Argen-tiny of alpac)

I find it odd that you cannot understand when expats criticize Argentines. It's not really complicated or hard to understand and it's not about expats being unable to adapt as you falsely posit. Expats criticize Argentines when the latter boast that their way of doing things is better than all of the rest of Europe and the US (as you did above). This kind of braggadacio is silly and inaccurate.

To the extent Argentines claim to possess loftier values and to enjoy the good, simple things of life (friends, asados) more than others, they justly bring upon themselves criticism for their arrogant jingoism. There is no proof that Argentines possess loftier values and there is no basis (other than hubris) for them to make that claim. Moreover, to the extent Argentines supposedly enjoy the simpler things of life more than all others, it is because their economic situation affords fewer options. Of necessity, not choice, they have asados rather than dine out (let alone travel internationally).

Your claim that Argentiines do not engage in (despicable) consumerism as much as other folks because they are more developed, nobler humans is also patently false. They 'consume' as much as their limited means allow. In fact, they consume more and save even less than other other societies because inflation makes it difficult, if not impossible, to save and build up wealth.

In sum, it's not about we expats being unable to adapt. It's about having to listen to annoyingly arrogant, absurdly specious claims from locals about how great they are compared to the rest of the world.
I hope this has helped you to understand why expats may criticize some Argentines.