How To Influence Effectively In This Culture

[Matiasba]

It's actually pathetic that you repeat the same rhetoric over and over without actually saying anything.

What was your point at the beginning of this thread? That Argentina is "more" egalitarian than other South American countries? That really isn't saying much Matias. Then you made some inaccurate comment about Argentina being more egalitarian than some European countries. Again, someone on the thread pointed out to you the inaccuracy of your statement.

I respond to you with sarcasm and lame attempts at humor because I find your responses amusing. I stopped trying to engage you with meaningful conversation because you don't care about reality/facts. You've proven that thread after thread.

facts? really? again? didnt you see the numbers in the image?

 

[toongeorges]

I learned something new about Argentina from the link:

... as a group Argentines value certainty and stability. They favor rules, regulations, standards, traditions, and controls. They don't readily accept change but instead value predictability. ...

 

[sleslie23]

facts? really? again? didnt you see the numbers in the image?

I'm curious what you think those numbers suggest about inequality in Argentina. To me they suggest mediocrity at best.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality

Are you proud that Argentina is .2 points lower than Peru? Or perhaps only .8 points higher than the US? What in your image shows anything worthy of praise?

Being a non-Argentine, I don't look at this list and think "hey, at least we're better than Bulgaria, Uruguay, and Jamaica!" I look at it and think considering all the resources available in the US, its rank should be much higher.

Even in the US, with all of its problems, I can't think of any place where you can purchase one of the most extreme symbols of ostentatious wealth a mere 3.4km from a location of such abject poverty. Maybe in Detroit or New Orleans.

 

[nkotb]

I don't think you'll find much wealth, ostentatious or otherwise, in Detroit.

 

[Ceviche]

I don't think you'll find much wealth, ostentatious or otherwise, in Detroit.

Lot of people who used to live in Detroit fled the city after recession.

 

[ElQueso]

I sure don't see Argentina as an egalitarian society. Cristina says so, and that seems to be OK for those who argue in favor it being called an egalitarian society, but not for me. Of course, it all depends on whether or not you are talking about giving equal opportunities to all (my preference), or ensuring that no one has more or less "stuff" than others have (the preference I see stated from populism) - two different ways to define "egalitarianism".

I had to kind of chuckle at the list of how to influence people here, though. There are some truths in it, along with some of the funnier parts. But I found this to be particularly humorous:

Despite their social orientation, people in this culture will expect your ideas and proposals to be logical and make sense. So be rational and factual. Offer supporting data or documentation. Just remember that building relationships is at least as important as building sound arguments.

I've been involved in a couple of attempted business endeavors here and found the absolute most important thing was the relationship - logical ideas are in the eye of the beholder and supporting documentation can be quite lacking. Many times, the relationships built here have more to do with how to avoid being shut down and/or pay less coima (or taxes, or what-have-you) than how to be successful in the actual business.

Unless that's only how it impacts us non-egalitarian foreigners.

But this is very true:

Argentina is a highly relationship-oriented culture, so it's essential to build and nurture relationships with the people you want to influence. Taking the time to build close relationships will increase your influence; failing to do so will diminish it.

It took me a couple of years to make enough contacts to influence someone to guarantee my lease so I didn't have to pay high temporary lease costs and be able to buy and place my own personal belongings in my household, etc. That and the price of a month's rent, every time, to the guarantor.

I don't find there to be much in the way of truth here, at least when doing business. A perfect example is when we were leasing our current apartment. I told the owners that I was interested in staying here at least 4 years, if not more. They were in complete agreement - verbally. Mentally was something else, apparently It wasn't until a couple of months after we signed the lease that we found out the two daughters (the "owners") were in a legal battle with their father over the apartment, which was their mother's (who passed away some 5 years ago). We found out when we were told "If someone rings the bell at the entrance and asks if you all are paying rent, tell them no, you're just paying expenses and that you're friends of the family." They only told us what was happening after we pressed them for the reason for such a strange request.

Inheritance laws state that the father gets half of the apartment and he has finally forced them legally to sell the apartment. And now, in another 9 months, I have to yet again find a guarantee, pay out an exorbitant amount of money to move and pay deposits and commissions, et al.

Turns out they were using us to pay their lawyers because they ran out of their own money. They leased the apartment 5 years after their mother's death because they couldn't keep fighting. They built a relationship with us to take advantage of the income we would give them for their own ends, without disclosing the reality of the situation. And every lease I've had has had problems of some sort that end up limiting the amount of time we can stay.

All quite egalitarian, logical and honest - and the relationship we were trying to build with them didn't end up counting for much.

I won't even talk about how forthright, honest and logical most service technicians are when it comes to their ability to diagnose and actually repair items that are even fabricated here in Argentina...

 

[ajoknoblauch]

I don't think you'll find much wealth, ostentatious or otherwise, in Detroit.

No, they all live in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ7AXKWmWOg

 

[Alicia karr]

El queso, I have always admired and respected you as a reasonable, thoughtful, articulate individual committed to their life here. But I don't get why you aren't choosing to BUY a place of your own and forget about all these renting issues?! I thank God practically every day that I did so seven years ago. And I don't worry about getting my money out later because I've seen many expats sell their places and go back as well in the last two years.

 

[Ceviche]

El queso, I have always admired and respected you as a reasonable, thoughtful, articulate individual committed to their life here. But I don't get why you aren't choosing to BUY a place of your own and forget about all these renting issues?! I thank God practically every day that I did so seven years ago. And I don't worry about getting my money out later because I've seen many expats sell their places and go back as well in the last two years.

Lacky, you stole words from my mouth!

 

[garryl]

I sure don't see Argentina as an egalitarian society. Cristina says so, and that seems to be OK for those who argue in favor it being called an egalitarian society, but not for me. Of course, it all depends on whether or not you are talking about giving equal opportunities to all (my preference), or ensuring that no one has more or less "stuff" than others have (the preference I see stated from populism) - two different ways to define "egalitarianism".

I had to kind of chuckle at the list of how to influence people here, though. There are some truths in it, along with some of the funnier parts. But I found this to be particularly humorous:



I've been involved in a couple of attempted business endeavors here and found the absolute most important thing was the relationship - logical ideas are in the eye of the beholder and supporting documentation can be quite lacking. Many times, the relationships built here have more to do with how to avoid being shut down and/or pay less coima (or taxes, or what-have-you) than how to be successful in the actual business.

Unless that's only how it impacts us non-egalitarian foreigners.

But this is very true:



It took me a couple of years to make enough contacts to influence someone to guarantee my lease so I didn't have to pay high temporary lease costs and be able to buy and place my own personal belongings in my household, etc. That and the price of a month's rent, every time, to the guarantor.

I don't find there to be much in the way of truth here, at least when doing business. A perfect example is when we were leasing our current apartment. I told the owners that I was interested in staying here at least 4 years, if not more. They were in complete agreement - verbally. Mentally was something else, apparently It wasn't until a couple of months after we signed the lease that we found out the two daughters (the "owners") were in a legal battle with their father over the apartment, which was their mother's (who passed away some 5 years ago). We found out when we were told "If someone rings the bell at the entrance and asks if you all are paying rent, tell them no, you're just paying expenses and that you're friends of the family." They only told us what was happening after we pressed them for the reason for such a strange request.

Inheritance laws state that the father gets half of the apartment and he has finally forced them legally to sell the apartment. And now, in another 9 months, I have to yet again find a guarantee, pay out an exorbitant amount of money to move and pay deposits and commissions, et al.

Turns out they were using us to pay their lawyers because they ran out of their own money. They leased the apartment 5 years after their mother's death because they couldn't keep fighting. They built a relationship with us to take advantage of the income we would give them for their own ends, without disclosing the reality of the situation. And every lease I've had has had problems of some sort that end up limiting the amount of time we can stay.

All quite egalitarian, logical and honest - and the relationship we were trying to build with them didn't end up counting for much.

I won't even talk about how forthright, honest and logical most service technicians are when it comes to their ability to diagnose and actually repair items that are even fabricated here in Argentina...

Relationship is vital in other countries too, unless you are Stove Jobs.
No one can be successful without a bunch of team/friends surrounding him/her.