I got my citizenship after 6 years

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If the new wealth tax On “great fortunes” ($2-3m+) is passed, it will create a new form of taxation based on nationality. Meaning if you are a citizen, regardless if you are resident here or abroad and you fall into that category you are liable to pay the tax in a similar way that US citizens are obliged to pay taxes regardless of where they live. The complexity here is that it is apparently impossible to renounce citizenship once acquired.

That is true even for non-residents? If so, that is a pretty bad downside and makes me happy I never pursued citizenship. It seems so outrageous that I think there must be some exception. I guess, even if you can't renounce, you can effectively renounce by never going back to AR as AR has little power outside it's borders.
 
FallenAngel called "zombie" cases those from 2016 that in his no legal opinion were freeze and he used as example a case of a) a victim of trafficking b) transgender c) with arrest order for deportation who d) applied with few days in Argentina and e) didn't speak Spanish. I explained in other posts that this is the situation of all those cases he called "zombie" that has no relationship with the facts of the members of this forum. I also explained that since I won that language is abolished I'm succeeding citizenship in those cases.

The goal is to win no matter how long does it take because meanwhile you are protected from deportation.

So, long term cases are not the standard situation of members of this forum in BA City.

The issue is that it is not just one case there are a variety of your cases with a variety of circumstance. The ONE circumstance they basically all have in common is they did not have legal residency. Not having legal residency is what makes the judge / prosecutor attack the case even from non-residency angles because they HATE cases that try to get citizenship without proper residency. This is not comprehensive as it is just what I could search within 5 minutes and lightly classify. You will notice these are all 4+ year old cases. The listed format is case #/year:

No resolution and active: 7778/2015, 2413/2014, 7281/2015, 7778/2015, 148/2016, 4763/2015, 7818/2016, 5098/2016

No resolution and abandoned: 2182/2016, 2356/2016, 5255/2014

Rejected cases: 2775/2016, 5770/2016, 3036/2016

Unknown but seems likely rejected: 5616/2014 - This case says "case closed" as a status, but it still seems to have an active issue. I am not sure if this is an active or rejected case as it is weirder than the others. This one is definitely not Chinese either so no excuse about that.

I am not arguing whether you are committed to your cases. You are absolutely and you are a fighter. People on this forum can likely easily qualify for the $300/mo rentista visa. And if someone gets that instead of overstaying on a tourist visa they will avoid this 5 year battle and discrimination and they will get citizenship in 2 years with no lawyer needed. IF someone needs a lawyer, then you are still the best, but I think it's better to avoid needing a lawyer just by getting residency.

The battle most easily one is one never fought -- get residency and you won't have to fight and you can get citizenship easy and quick. That is my message.
 
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That is true even for non-residents? If so, that is a pretty bad downside and makes me happy I never pursued citizenship. It seems so outrageous that I think there must be some exception. I guess, even if you can't renounce, you can effectively renounce by never going back to AR as AR has little power outside it's borders.
Today all Argentine taxation is based on residency. However this new law threatens to set a precedent that changes that, which is one of the reasons it is causing such a fuss.

I would also not underestimate the abilities of states of go after assets abroad, especially if targeting higher net worth individuals. Argentina has done it already. They sue the banks, banks freeze assets and then in the long run the banks stop doing business with citizens of problem countries making life more difficult for you wherever you are - like US citizens.
 
The issue is that it is not just one case there are a variety of your cases with a variety of circumstance. The ONE circumstance they basically all have in common is they did not have legal residency. Not having legal residency is what makes the judge / prosecutor attack the case even from non-residency angles because they HATE cases that try to get citizenship without proper residency. This is not comprehensive as it is just what I could search within 5 minutes and lightly classify. You will notice these are all 4+ year old cases. The listed format is case #/year:

No resolution and active: 7778/2015, 2413/2014, 7281/2015, 7778/2015, 148/2016, 4763/2015, 7818/2016, 5098/2016

No resolution and abandoned: 2182/2016, 2356/2016, 5255/2014

Rejected cases: 2775/2016, 5770/2016, 3036/2016

Unknown but seems likely rejected: 5616/2014 - This case says "case closed" as a status, but it still seems to have an active issue. I am not sure if this is an active or rejected case as it is weirder than the others. This one is definitely not Chinese either so no excuse about that.

I am not arguing whether you are committed to your cases. You are absolutely and you are a fighter. People on this forum can likely easily qualify for the $300/mo rentista visa. And if someone gets that instead of overstaying on a tourist visa they will avoid this 5 year battle and discrimination and they will get citizenship in 2 years with no lawyer needed. IF someone needs a lawyer, then you are still the best, but I think it's better to avoid needing a lawyer just by getting residency.

The battle most easily one is one never fought -- get residency and you won't have to fight and you can get citizenship easy and quick. That is my message.
Thanks a lot for all your posts on this subject. I have been coming here since 1996 on the average twice a year, have no irregularities on my record, and now have permanent residency. I don't know that I will ever apply for citizenship but I think it's important to be as clear as possible about the realities one will face if he/she chooses to, depending on his/her situation. Thanks!
 
Here's the medium-length version of what happened. This is based on my 9 pages of notes from my first meeting with bajo_cero in September 2013, through 2017 when I just stopped taking notes, and from memory after that. I moved to Argentina in late 2013 with my girlfriend, and we both requested citizenship in late 2014. Her case was straightforward, and we decided to get temporary residency for her. My case was not straightforward. I had a non-violent but serious criminal conviction from the late 1990s, which was more than 15 years old at the time I requested citizenship. I asked bajo_cero if I should get residency and he said no, because I will be denied (due to my criminal history) and possibly deported. Following his advice, I decided to not try to get residency. I even asked about it on the forum here: https://baexpats.org/threads/citizenship-options-overstay-tourist-visa-or-legit-route.28786/ . I'll get back to my residency below.

I had all my paperwork in order (birth certificate, FBI report, all apostilled, translated, etc). I went through the normal citizenship process of giving my fingerprints a few places (Federal police, Reincidencia). While I was giving fingerprints at the Federal police, I noticed that both of my parents' names were misspelled on my court paperwork. I mentioned this to bajo_cero, and he said he would file something to correct my parents' names. This is the first big snafu. The judge ordered my case to completely restart, due to correcting my parents' names. bajo_cero told me he knew this would happen, but he failed to mention this risk when we were deciding whether or not to correct the parents' names then, or wait until I have a sentence (which we could have done). This miscommunication may have cost 4 years of progress, if I had won my case on the first round.

In early 2015, I had to decide whether to go to the US for a good friend's wedding. This would be my first time leaving Argentina, and I didn't yet have 2 years continuous in Argentina. I could have easily just stayed in Argentina, but I asked bajo_cero and he said it was ok to visit the US, so I did. Later, when my case would be rejected in 2016, this would be the reason (not having 2 years continuous in Argentina, because of this visit to the US). Very frustrating, since I again followed bajo's advice and was denied because of it. But back to 2015 for now.

After 6-9 more months, now in mid- to late-2015, bajo_cero said my case was "stuck" in the reports phase, so he filed a motion to recuse the judge (that is, to get a new judge). We ended up with a worse judge, so he managed to get it back to the previous one.

2016 rolls around, bajo_cero says he is working on a case to win all cases, having something to do with nazis and some guy named Ramella. Meanwhile my girlfriend's case is proceeding mostly normally (she had temporary residency this whole time). In these citizenship cases, the "fiscal" is like a prosecutor, who recommends for or against granting citizenship. My fiscal recommended against giving my citizenship, because he incorrectly said my criminal history disqualifies me. In fact the law requires 5 years good conduct, and I had over 15 years good conduct. The fiscal in my case was now saying he wanted proof that I don't have any outstanding cases anywhere in the world. There is no document that states "you have no outstanding cases". In addition, theoretically I would have to get this document from every jurisdiction in the world, and every state, county, and city in the USA. I went to the US Embassy, asking for a document simply stating that there is no warrant for my arrest. At one point, bajo_cero said I should go back to the US Embassy and ask to be arrested, and try to get a statement that they declined to arrest me. I did it, but they wouldn't give me such a statement. They also looked at me like I was crazy.

In the 2nd half of 2016, my case was denied, and according to the court, the reason was because I didn't have "2 years continuous" in Argentina, because I had visited the US in March 2015 for my friend's wedding. (As I mentioned above). I wasn't even denied because of my criminal history. It was late 2016 and we had half way given up on citizenship. Then on Thanksgiving 2016, while we were in the US, we found out my girlfriend had won her citizenship. So we went back to Argentina and she did her oath and got her DNI and passport. This opened some doors. So in 2017 I decided to pursue residency again, and I hired a residency lawyer to help me. We also got married, and I was now married to an Argentine citizen.
The residency took a while. Nothing happened for 6-12 months, and my residency lawyer finally had to file an "amparo por mora", which is what you file to force a government agency to act. I think it's like a mandamus in the US. Finally Migraciones came and did an in-person interview in our home, which lasted about 45 minutes. In February 2019 I finally won my permanent residency. I think this was key. I was legal again, and we notified the court on my citizenship case that I had permanent residency.

And a year and a half later, in August 2020, I got my Argentine citizenship.

I have to thank bajo_cero, since in the end, we did win the case. However, at times I felt he was more concerned with setting precedent that would help all his cases, than my own case. I believe the ethical obligation of a lawyer is to the individual client's case, otherwise it becomes a conflict of interest. Sometimes he would file motions saying the judge was a nazi or apartheid or something, and I'm not sure that helped at all. In the end, I firmly believe that getting residency is the best thing you can do to get citizenship. Sure, it was (and maybe still is) possible to get citizenship without residency. If you absolutely cannot get residency, well then you don't really have a choice. But if you can get residency, it will go much smoother.

Over the years, I would end up getting 8 or 9 FBI reports, each time paying about US $80, then getting it apostilled, then translated here in Argentina. The FBI report never changed, it just "expired", so the court or Migraciones would request an updated one. Over the 6 years, my case was denied at least once, and "restarted" 2 or 3 times.
 
Here's the medium-length version of what happened. This is based on my 9 pages of notes from my first meeting with bajo_cero in September 2013, through 2017 when I just stopped taking notes, and from memory after that. I moved to Argentina in late 2013 with my girlfriend, and we both requested citizenship in late 2014. Her case was straightforward, and we decided to get temporary residency for her. My case was not straightforward. I had a non-violent but serious criminal conviction from the late 1990s, which was more than 15 years old at the time I requested citizenship. I asked bajo_cero if I should get residency and he said no, because I will be denied (due to my criminal history) and possibly deported. Following his advice, I decided to not try to get residency. I even asked about it on the forum here: https://baexpats.org/threads/citizenship-options-overstay-tourist-visa-or-legit-route.28786/ . I'll get back to my residency below.

I had all my paperwork in order (birth certificate, FBI report, all apostilled, translated, etc). I went through the normal citizenship process of giving my fingerprints a few places (Federal police, Reincidencia). While I was giving fingerprints at the Federal police, I noticed that both of my parents' names were misspelled on my court paperwork. I mentioned this to bajo_cero, and he said he would file something to correct my parents' names. This is the first big snafu. The judge ordered my case to completely restart, due to correcting my parents' names. bajo_cero told me he knew this would happen, but he failed to mention this risk when we were deciding whether or not to correct the parents' names then, or wait until I have a sentence (which we could have done). This miscommunication may have cost 4 years of progress, if I had won my case on the first round.

In early 2015, I had to decide whether to go to the US for a good friend's wedding. This would be my first time leaving Argentina, and I didn't yet have 2 years continuous in Argentina. I could have easily just stayed in Argentina, but I asked bajo_cero and he said it was ok to visit the US, so I did. Later, when my case would be rejected in 2016, this would be the reason (not having 2 years continuous in Argentina, because of this visit to the US). Very frustrating, since I again followed bajo's advice and was denied because of it. But back to 2015 for now.

After 6-9 more months, now in mid- to late-2015, bajo_cero said my case was "stuck" in the reports phase, so he filed a motion to recuse the judge (that is, to get a new judge). We ended up with a worse judge, so he managed to get it back to the previous one.

2016 rolls around, bajo_cero says he is working on a case to win all cases, having something to do with nazis and some guy named Ramella. Meanwhile my girlfriend's case is proceeding mostly normally (she had temporary residency this whole time). In these citizenship cases, the "fiscal" is like a prosecutor, who recommends for or against granting citizenship. My fiscal recommended against giving my citizenship, because he incorrectly said my criminal history disqualifies me. In fact the law requires 5 years good conduct, and I had over 15 years good conduct. The fiscal in my case was now saying he wanted proof that I don't have any outstanding cases anywhere in the world. There is no document that states "you have no outstanding cases". In addition, theoretically I would have to get this document from every jurisdiction in the world, and every state, county, and city in the USA. I went to the US Embassy, asking for a document simply stating that there is no warrant for my arrest. At one point, bajo_cero said I should go back to the US Embassy and ask to be arrested, and try to get a statement that they declined to arrest me. I did it, but they wouldn't give me such a statement. They also looked at me like I was crazy.

In the 2nd half of 2016, my case was denied, and according to the court, the reason was because I didn't have "2 years continuous" in Argentina, because I had visited the US in March 2015 for my friend's wedding. (As I mentioned above). I wasn't even denied because of my criminal history. It was late 2016 and we had half way given up on citizenship. Then on Thanksgiving 2016, while we were in the US, we found out my girlfriend had won her citizenship. So we went back to Argentina and she did her oath and got her DNI and passport. This opened some doors. So in 2017 I decided to pursue residency again, and I hired a residency lawyer to help me. We also got married, and I was now married to an Argentine citizen.
The residency took a while. Nothing happened for 6-12 months, and my residency lawyer finally had to file an "amparo por mora", which is what you file to force a government agency to act. I think it's like a mandamus in the US. Finally Migraciones came and did an in-person interview in our home, which lasted about 45 minutes. In February 2019 I finally won my permanent residency. I think this was key. I was legal again, and we notified the court on my citizenship case that I had permanent residency.

And a year and a half later, in August 2020, I got my Argentine citizenship.

I have to thank bajo_cero, since in the end, we did win the case. However, at times I felt he was more concerned with setting precedent that would help all his cases, than my own case. I believe the ethical obligation of a lawyer is to the individual client's case, otherwise it becomes a conflict of interest. Sometimes he would file motions saying the judge was a nazi or apartheid or something, and I'm not sure that helped at all. In the end, I firmly believe that getting residency is the best thing you can do to get citizenship. Sure, it was (and maybe still is) possible to get citizenship without residency. If you absolutely cannot get residency, well then you don't really have a choice. But if you can get residency, it will go much smoother.

Over the years, I would end up getting 8 or 9 FBI reports, each time paying about US $80, then getting it apostilled, then translated here in Argentina. The FBI report never changed, it just "expired", so the court or Migraciones would request an updated one. Over the 6 years, my case was denied at least once, and "restarted" 2 or 3 times.
Thanks so much, Camel. Your honesty and candor about the trials and tribulations of your path to citizenship is a real contribution to this community.
 
I swear I was about to repeat a version of a comment I’ve made a few times on this forum, saying basically that I am happy to salute someone that appears - despite our frequent, vocal and substantial disagreements - to be a consummate pro at his job.

I am happy I read till the end. Now, I can only salute camel on having the magnanimity to express appreciation to a lawyer who seriously futzed up his case twice, moreover when key to the resolution of that case turned out to be the exact thing he claims is never needed - residency.

(That he repeats this claim in this very thread, knowing full well the circumstances of the case, is every bit the chutzpah I’ve come to expect from the learned gentleman.)

motions saying the judge was a nazi or apartheid or something - everybody drink.
 
Here's the medium-length version of what happened. This is based on my 9 pages of notes from my first meeting with bajo_cero in September 2013, through 2017 when I just stopped taking notes, and from memory after that. I moved to Argentina in late 2013 with my girlfriend, and we both requested citizenship in late 2014. Her case was straightforward, and we decided to get temporary residency for her. My case was not straightforward. I had a non-violent but serious criminal conviction from the late 1990s, which was more than 15 years old at the time I requested citizenship. I asked bajo_cero if I should get residency and he said no, because I will be denied (due to my criminal history) and possibly deported. Following his advice, I decided to not try to get residency. I even asked about it on the forum here: https://baexpats.org/threads/citizenship-options-overstay-tourist-visa-or-legit-route.28786/ . I'll get back to my residency below.

I had all my paperwork in order (birth certificate, FBI report, all apostilled, translated, etc). I went through the normal citizenship process of giving my fingerprints a few places (Federal police, Reincidencia). While I was giving fingerprints at the Federal police, I noticed that both of my parents' names were misspelled on my court paperwork. I mentioned this to bajo_cero, and he said he would file something to correct my parents' names. This is the first big snafu. The judge ordered my case to completely restart, due to correcting my parents' names. bajo_cero told me he knew this would happen, but he failed to mention this risk when we were deciding whether or not to correct the parents' names then, or wait until I have a sentence (which we could have done). This miscommunication may have cost 4 years of progress, if I had won my case on the first round.

In early 2015, I had to decide whether to go to the US for a good friend's wedding. This would be my first time leaving Argentina, and I didn't yet have 2 years continuous in Argentina. I could have easily just stayed in Argentina, but I asked bajo_cero and he said it was ok to visit the US, so I did. Later, when my case would be rejected in 2016, this would be the reason (not having 2 years continuous in Argentina, because of this visit to the US). Very frustrating, since I again followed bajo's advice and was denied because of it. But back to 2015 for now.

After 6-9 more months, now in mid- to late-2015, bajo_cero said my case was "stuck" in the reports phase, so he filed a motion to recuse the judge (that is, to get a new judge). We ended up with a worse judge, so he managed to get it back to the previous one.

2016 rolls around, bajo_cero says he is working on a case to win all cases, having something to do with nazis and some guy named Ramella. Meanwhile my girlfriend's case is proceeding mostly normally (she had temporary residency this whole time). In these citizenship cases, the "fiscal" is like a prosecutor, who recommends for or against granting citizenship. My fiscal recommended against giving my citizenship, because he incorrectly said my criminal history disqualifies me. In fact the law requires 5 years good conduct, and I had over 15 years good conduct. The fiscal in my case was now saying he wanted proof that I don't have any outstanding cases anywhere in the world. There is no document that states "you have no outstanding cases". In addition, theoretically I would have to get this document from every jurisdiction in the world, and every state, county, and city in the USA. I went to the US Embassy, asking for a document simply stating that there is no warrant for my arrest. At one point, bajo_cero said I should go back to the US Embassy and ask to be arrested, and try to get a statement that they declined to arrest me. I did it, but they wouldn't give me such a statement. They also looked at me like I was crazy.

In the 2nd half of 2016, my case was denied, and according to the court, the reason was because I didn't have "2 years continuous" in Argentina, because I had visited the US in March 2015 for my friend's wedding. (As I mentioned above). I wasn't even denied because of my criminal history. It was late 2016 and we had half way given up on citizenship. Then on Thanksgiving 2016, while we were in the US, we found out my girlfriend had won her citizenship. So we went back to Argentina and she did her oath and got her DNI and passport. This opened some doors. So in 2017 I decided to pursue residency again, and I hired a residency lawyer to help me. We also got married, and I was now married to an Argentine citizen.
The residency took a while. Nothing happened for 6-12 months, and my residency lawyer finally had to file an "amparo por mora", which is what you file to force a government agency to act. I think it's like a mandamus in the US. Finally Migraciones came and did an in-person interview in our home, which lasted about 45 minutes. In February 2019 I finally won my permanent residency. I think this was key. I was legal again, and we notified the court on my citizenship case that I had permanent residency.

And a year and a half later, in August 2020, I got my Argentine citizenship.

I have to thank bajo_cero, since in the end, we did win the case. However, at times I felt he was more concerned with setting precedent that would help all his cases, than my own case. I believe the ethical obligation of a lawyer is to the individual client's case, otherwise it becomes a conflict of interest. Sometimes he would file motions saying the judge was a nazi or apartheid or something, and I'm not sure that helped at all. In the end, I firmly believe that getting residency is the best thing you can do to get citizenship. Sure, it was (and maybe still is) possible to get citizenship without residency. If you absolutely cannot get residency, well then you don't really have a choice. But if you can get residency, it will go much smoother.

Over the years, I would end up getting 8 or 9 FBI reports, each time paying about US $80, then getting it apostilled, then translated here in Argentina. The FBI report never changed, it just "expired", so the court or Migraciones would request an updated one. Over the 6 years, my case was denied at least once, and "restarted" 2 or 3 times.
Camel,

You went through quite a journey.

Enjoy being at the destination. Great story you have.

Thanks for sharing it. It will help others.
 
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