In defense of tourists

[sesamosinsal]

Tea-party nuts aside, the US is more open to newcomers.

Americans move around a lot, and are used to making new friends whenever they move. They join clubs, get involved in community projects, PTAs, etcetera, and are more open towards new people.

Argentines are much more likely to stay put, in the same city, often in the same neighborhood, and even in the same house, passed from one generation to the next. They have large families, dozens of cousins, and dozens of old friends going back to elementary school. So, their social lives are full and they are not too interested in making new friends. A pity, in my opinion, but that's what I see all around.

Where in the U.S. have you lived, SaraSara? Have you ever been out of a major city? I grew up in rural Missouri, as most Missourians do. Kansas City and St. Louis are our only "major cities," with a combined total pop. of perhaps 1.5 million people. The state has about 5 million inhabitants.

Missouri is not pro-immigrant. The public voted 86% in favor of an amendment in 2008 banning the use of any other language (*cough*Spanish*cough*) than English in official public meetings. Approximately 30 other states have similar laws. (Source) If the United States were so accepting of newcomers, we'd probably not be banning the use of "foreign" languages in public meetings. We'd also probably have immigration reform by now.

Most don't have a problem with people coming as tourists. But if you're not from here and you do not speak the standard English accent (y'all, over-yonder, have a good'n!), I wish you luck. It's hard enough for someone from another town to fit in -- heck, I didn't even fit in! I can't imagine what it would be like for someone from another country.

Many families here stay put as well. Mine have been in the same area since they started keeping track of that stuff. I am an anomaly, but my sister still has the same friends since elementary school and still lives in the same town we grew up in. Many of the folks who I graduated HS with still live in my hometown or have returned since graduating from university.

I guess my United States is much more different than yours.

ETA: Arizona is much more of an immigrant paradise than MO.

"The legislation would make it a state crime to be in the U.S. illegally. Police will also be able to ask anyone to prove their legal status and demand to see a driver's license or state ID whenever the officer felt "reasonable suspicion exists." Without proper documents, immigrants can be jailed, fined or deported." ~ SOURCE

Why, yes, we love foreigners!! Show us yer papers!

 

[ssr]

I guess my United States is much more different than yours.

Your United States is certainly different from mine. Yours sounds kinda sucky. Mine's better.

 

[nikad]

The above posts by sarasara and nikad are statements typical by racist Argentines that don't think or know the facts of perma-tourists, tourists or immigrants. Here in Argentina it is the Argentines that uses and abuse the system. The Perma-tourists have their own insurance at private hospitals and the tourists have travel insurance, and they certainly don't put their kids in public schools. They also inject Massive amounts of pesos into the tax system , in fact much more per capita than the Argentines do. The Illegal immigrants actually cost less for the state per capita than the Argentines do because the illegal immigrants only qualify for free hospitals and schools while the Argentines qualify for all the Argentine welfare. There is so much more but the fact is that the Agentines are the ones guilty of destroying their own economy.

Your posts are very deep and insightful really, we must have met in past lives as you seem to know me so well. Why not tell us a bit about yourself? Where are you from? What are you doing here? How old are you? I assume English is not your mother tongue. Whether Argentine use and or abuse their system, I believe it is their right to do so if they wish ( not that I support that ) since it is their country and everything is payed for with their taxes, don´t you think so?

 

[sesamosinsal]

Your United States is certainly different from mine. Yours sounds kinda sucky. Mine's better.

Missouri is actually a lovely state. The people here are generally very nice, trustworthy, and respectful. But like most of the United States (and countries, for that matter!), the people here have issues with immigrants -- both illegal and legal. In major cities, being an immigrant would not be difficult. However, major cities do not reflect the sentiments of the entire country.

I think its disingenuous to suggest that the United States is more open to foreigners than Argentina. At least Argentina provides a pathway to legalization for nationals of countries associated with MERCOSUR. If you're an undocumented worker in the United States, there is no feasible pathway whatsoever to legalization. Furthermore, the possibility of being a permatourist in the United States is, well, not possible.

I have yet to see any "Speak Spanish!" or "Use the voseo!" bumper stickers in Argentina. But I'll keep an eye out for them.

 

[elhombresinnombre]

Erm....
Pretty much every government the world over welcomes tourists with open arms.

They inject wealth directly into the economy, place a very low burden on state services, then leave.

You've made a case against illegal immigration and tax evasion, not perma-tourism.

I agree that you've made the case for tourism. Argentina welcomes careful tourists, usually grants them 90 days in which to do touristy things; may grant them up to a further 90 days if the first trenche wasn't enough, and then the tourist has to leave. For Argentina that seems to me to be A Good Thing: the tourist has injected wealth directly into the economy, placed a very low burden on state services and left.

Permatourism requires an effort of will to interpret a technicality that doesn't prevent multiple re-entry as an invitation to multiple re-entry. It also requires an effort of will to see that technicality as a gateway to not paying taxes, not voting, not contributing to society in the ways that ordinary people who live in Argentina year after year are expected to. I find it very hard not to equate permatourism with illegal immigration and tax evasion - perhaps I don't have enough will-power or imagination to see it the other way.

 

[ssr]

Whether Argentine use and or abuse their system, I believe it is their right to do so if they wish ( not that I support that ) since it is their country and everything is payed for with their taxes, don´t you think so?

Well, that's true. Argentines are certainly free to screw up their own country. The problem is that Argentines go scurrying away from the mess they've caused every time their country collapses and they become a burden elsewhere. When I was living in Spain a few years ago I heard quite a few unflattering comments about Argentines but always assumed it was just the crazy racist Spaniards being crazy and racist. But, as several people have pointed out on this thread, maybe it can be upsetting when a whole bunch of people drop into your country and start using taxpayer-funded resources.

And we all understand the difference between the Argentine economic refugees that washed up in Europe after 2001 and the perma-tourists spending their savings in Argentina now. Certainly the Spaniards had a bit more cause to be upset about the folks showing up looking for work and using their free hospitals and whatnot than Argentines do about the folks currently renting expensive apartments and throwing money away at nightclubs in BA. But we all have foreigners overstaying visas and using taxpayer-subsidized things in our home countries and we just need to accept that that sort of thing happens sometimes, right?

 

[IFMGA]

Your posts are very deep and insightful really,

I will try to make them a little more shallow for you next time so you get it.

we must have met in past lives as you seem to know me so well.

No I don't think so.

Why not tell us a bit about yourself? Where are you from? What are you doing here? How old are you?

WHY? I know none of that about you.

I assume English is not your mother tongue.

And I assume you are not your mothers........

Whether Argentine use and or abuse their system, I believe it is their right to do so if they wish ( not that I support that ) since it is their country and everything is payed for with their taxes, don´t you think so?

No i don't think so I know so, but it is not all paid by their taxes it is also paid by funds stolen from other countries.

 

[SaraSara]

Where in the U.S. have you lived, SaraSara? Have you ever been out of a major city?

Is that an honest question or are you trying to patronize me?

Yes, I have "been out of a major city". In fact, we lived quite a few years in a Colorado hamlet so small that it was just a crossroad: one general store, a single gas pump, two churches, a feed store, a fire station, and a restaurant/tavern. That was all. You can't get more Real America than that - even Sarah Palin would have to agree. We were befriended and helped by the neighbors, and invited to join the local volunteer associations.

We also lived in three major urban areas, and had trouble in neither one. We made friends with our neighbors, watched each other's children, and helped put up each other's storm windows.

On two occasions I drove cross country by myself, camping with only the dog for company, and met with nothing but kindness. People noticed my out of state tags, my THICK Spanish accent (I sound like Chico Marx in a bad day) and invited me to stay in their homes, or camp in their fields.

I think you are selling the US short - it's a far friendlier place than you make it out to be. Perhaps it all depends on one's attitude.

 

[IFMGA]

I think you are selling the US short - it's a far friendlier place than you make it out to be. Perhaps it all depends on one's attitude.

Or it could be that the gringos LOVE "fruitcake"
Joking aside, I do agree with what you say in this post.

 

[SaraSara]

Missouri is actually a lovely state. The people here are generally very nice, trustworthy, and respectful. But like most of the United States (and countries, for that matter!), the people here have issues with immigrants -- both illegal and legal. In major cities, being an immigrant would not be difficult. However, major cities do not reflect the sentiments of the entire country.

I think its disingenuous to suggest that the United States is more open to foreigners than Argentina. At least Argentina provides a pathway to legalization for nationals of countries associated with MERCOSUR. If you're an undocumented worker in the United States, there is no feasible pathway whatsoever to legalization. Furthermore, the possibility of being a permatourist in the United States is, well, not possible.

I have yet to see any "Speak Spanish!" or "Use the voseo!" bumper stickers in Argentina. But I'll keep an eye out for them.

My post was about people's attitudes towards foreigners, not about immigration policies. I've found Americans to be generally more open to new experiences, and to new people, than Argentines are.