In defense of tourists

[mini]

It's always ironic when Americans say, "Just learn English!" when most of them have never learned a second language themselves. The government shouldn't be forced to translate everything into every language. But for the good of us all, the government should be allowed to help people assimilate. As we all should be aware, this process doesn't happen overnight.

But they are in their country. Had they left then the would have been obliged to learn a new language. I've lived in a few countries & I have yet to be offered the driving test in English or any other language then the one(s) spoken in that country. I wonder if the driving test is offered in English here?

 

[Alzinho]

too deep for me this thread.......

The oddest thing about it Howard is that there all these Americans who think they speak 'English'!

;-)

 

[ElQueso]

I never said that the government should conduct its business in Spanish. I said that the government should have that option. In Missouri, some cities and towns have a predominant Spanish-speaking population. Here's a possibility: Some local lawmakers might speak Spanish, and they may want want to hold a forum for their Spanish-speaking constituents to ensure that they understand the details of a particular piece of legislation. The Missouri Constitution would now forbid this meeting. I think this is unfair, especially if these constituents are taxpayers.

I think that people outside of those districts that contribute revenue in some shared manner back into those "mostly ethnic" neighborhoods probably don't like their money wasted by the government.

Again, if you have a MAJORITY of people somewhere who are not learning English, that is a problem. If you have enough people in a district who do not know English that the government itself feels like it needs to get involved to provide, basically, translation services, then the people who live in that district are not making an effort, AS A WHOLE, to fit in. Period. And the government has no business helping support that problem.

After all, you don't get tens of thousands of immigrants in one fell swoop, like a bunch of refugees (which would be a different situation), who all settle down in one place at one time in the case you are talking about. You are talking about communities who consistently do not learn English and hold on to whatever crutches are provided to continue in that manner.

I think it's very convenient for us to ignore the social factors. Most people don't emigrate to the U.S. for the hell of it. The vast majority of Latinos come here out of desperation. My great-great-grandmother came to the U.S. from Germany; I'm told her English was never perfect, by the way. Her family didn't leave Germany because they loved the U.S. They left Germany in search of a better life.

No one's ignoring the social aspect. Those who are saying "learn English" are saying that we have looked at the social aspect and have determined that it's not our responsibility to continue to provide succor to communities who consistently do not learn to aculturate.

Your great-great-grandmother, I'd be willing to bet, while not having perfect English, never once thought the government should be telling her in German what was going on - I'm betting, knowing German immigrant families as well as I do (half of East Texas was founded by German immigrants), that she would have been mortified to think that the government should stoop to make special cases for her. I bet she depended on family and the German community to get by where she didn't understand.

I've met several Latino immigrants in Missouri. Most of them work low-paying jobs and have to raise a family. If they're undocumented, it's impossible to get the financial aid to go to school. If they are documented, it's impossible to go to school because they don't have the time. Furthermore, some of them have never had any formal education in their lives. Some of them can't even write the alphabet.

I simply cannot understand why you think the US or any state government should be responsible for making sure its constituents understand what it is doing in any language other than English. Why is it that we should invite legal immigrants into our country if they are not willing or able to aculturate? And if they're illegal - THEY SHOULDN'T BE THERE!

If you are concerned about the poor in other countries (as far as that being a motivation for them coming to the US), do what I do. Put your own money where your mouth is (i.e., not other people's money, coerced out of them by the government to make you feel better tha poor illegals have a better life).

I have spent quite a bit of time in Paraguay and have helped my wife's family, and those around them, get ahead by teaching them how to do business a little better, supplying some cheap loans (no interest, as cheap as you can get) to buy a couple of things they need like cows and pigs, water pumps, things that get them over the hill from extreme poverty to just below-average poverty. A little help like that goes a long way toward "priming the pump" so to speak. Teaching them to fish instead of providing them with a meal. Etc.

Help make the world a better place all over. We can't possibly take all of those around the world who want to come to the US and live a better life. There's no way. Maybe if more people form the US, personally (i.e., not the government) got out and actually did something in the world instead of saying "oh my, that's just so awful" things would be a little better all over.

Governments don't do anything but prolong (or create) problems - they rarely solve them. But it's so easy for those who say "it ought to be like this" instead of actually getting out themselves and doing something about what they don't like.

It's always ironic when Americans say, "Just learn English!" when most of them have never learned a second language themselves. The government shouldn't be forced to translate everything into every language. But for the good of us all, the government should be allowed to help people assimilate. As we all should be aware, this process doesn't happen overnight.

Most of those Americans don't leave their country. That's another issue, very complicated on a number of levels, but has absolutely nothing to do with your argument.

The government absolutely should not help people assimilate. It should provide a framework that is equal to all so that those who are concerned about making a better life for themselves, can. But the US government (nor any government in the world that I know of, including not Argentina) should NOT have to help people from other cultures and countries assimilate. Those who are incapable of assimilating on their own or within existing social support frameworks have no business emmigrating from their country of origin to begin with.

But any American who leaves his/her own country and expects some other government to take care of him related to his/her language deserves to fail every bit as much as anyone else who goes to another country, unprepared, and unable to assimilate.

 

[jp]

Permatourism requires an effort of will to interpret a technicality that doesn't prevent multiple re-entry as an invitation to multiple re-entry. It also requires an effort of will to see that technicality as a gateway to not paying taxes, not voting, not contributing to society in the ways that ordinary people who live in Argentina year after year are expected to. I find it very hard not to equate permatourism with illegal immigration and tax evasion - perhaps I don't have enough will-power or imagination to see it the other way.

I understand and appreciate this perspective. I can only speak from personal experience - whilst my legal status here has been guaranteed by my employer the majority of my friends have not been able to work in this way. I do not know a single person here who does not subsidise their peso income, be it in blanco or in negro, with foreign wealth (foreign income or savings). All the permatourists I know ultimately end up injecting a large amount of foreign currency into Argentina's economy, and leave without troubling the state services taxes provide for. Maybe this a question of perspective. I don't think you'd describe bolivian immigrants as perma-tourists, its a term thats typically reserved for tourists from rich western countries, who stay for several months or maybe years, instead of the typical few weeks tourists stay for.

@ Nikad... you are without a doubt one of the kindest and most reasonable people I've seen post on this forum so its a pain to be at odds with you, but I genuinely don't see permatourists from europe or the US as a threat to the economy here. Personally, I know that the taxes I pay, and my friends pay (mostly monotributistas) cover services we will never use, and the people I know who earn a pittance working in negro rarely if ever use state services. I genuinely think its better that they keep earning and spending then leave the country completely. They'll inject money into the economy and will neve take out more than they contribute before they ultimately leave... I appreciate that this isn't the same for everyone, but I'm yet to meet an expat who can be described as purely leeching from the economy here....

 

[sesamosinsal]

Again, you fail to understand why those who can't speak English or don't have the resources to learn English emigrate to the United States in the first place. It's a matter of survival. They may have no business coming to the United States, but they also feel that they don't have many options.

If you're a fluent speaker of Spanish, then surely you'd know that the process doesn't happen in two days. I've been learning Spanish for 10-years, and I speak/write it quite well. So, what has gone into this process? I took 5 years of it in a public high school; I took 18 credit hours worth of Spanish courses at university; and I've spent hours with newspapers, books, Univision, Telemundo, and a dictionary learning new vocabulary. Not only did I have the time to do this, but I also had the financial resources to take these courses and the educational background (all government-funded educational institutions, by the way... *gasp* SOCIALISM!) to understand what I was being taught.

What do you say to an undocumented Mexican man with no schooling whatsoever who works 40+ hours a week in a restaurant kitchen making less than the federal minimum wage (7.25)? He doesn't have the time, the financial resources, or the educational background just to walk into an English class. SaraSara is right when she says that many of them have the will to try, but many fail because of the restraints. Evidently you do not understand the sociology of this issue.

I am glad that as an individual you have helped. I've been a volunteer at the "Centro Latino" in my city. As individuals, we can do a lot, but we cannot individually fix problems as serious as these. This is why policy matters. We need a humane policy that brings the 12 million people in the U.S. out of the shadows. If we can have a military base on nearly every continent and fund wars that cost more than a billion dollars a day, I think we can devote a couple billion to improving peoples' lives.

The issue of non-English-speaking immigrants is not going to go away, just as illegal immigration will never stop. So long as the United States remains more economically vibrant than other countries, there will always be people coming on tourist visas and never leaving. You may say that these people have no business being here if they don't speak English, but that is moot: They're here; they're not going away; and there's nothing we can do about it. Therefore, we can either adopt policies that further isolate them, or we can adopt policies that embrace their presence and help them assimilate. I think it is in our best interest to help them assimilate.

The author of this NYTimes article did not discuss Latinos, but this quote (which I love) still speaks to this issue indirectly:

"Even the optics must be irritating. A woman (Nancy Pelosi) pushed the health care bill through the House. The bill’s most visible and vocal proponents included a gay man (Barney Frank) and a Jew (Anthony Weiner). And the black man in the White House signed the bill into law. It’s enough to make a good old boy go crazy."

Like it or not, the cultural fabric of the United States is changing. Latinos are already the dominant ethnic group in several cities in this country. What all of this comes down to is a loss of power for the privileged group in the U.S., and that's precisely why English-only laws exist and why the U.S. hasn't seen immigration reform. Why in the world would the dominant non-Latino whites want to empower the fastest growing minority (English not necessary to reproduce) in the United States? Sadly, they seem to be clueless to the fact that it's a battle they won't win, and I predict that this is going to lead to many, many problems in the future.

 

[nikad]

@ Nikad... you are without a doubt one of the kindest and most reasonable people I've seen post on this forum so its a pain to be at odds with you, but I genuinely don't see permatourists from europe or the US as a threat to the economy here. Personally, I know that the taxes I pay, and my friends pay (mostly monotributistas) cover services we will never use, and the people I know who earn a pittance working in negro rarely if ever use state services. I genuinely think its better that they keep earning and spending then leave the country completely. They'll inject money into the economy and will neve take out more than they contribute before they ultimately leave... I appreciate that this isn't the same for everyone, but I'm yet to meet an expat who can be described as purely leeching from the economy here....

Well, thanks for the compliments I do acknowledge that most permatourists do not leech the system, and really my point is not about permas and illegal immigrants doing so, I just think that it is illegal to live in a country they way a lot of them do, and that most likely they would not dare do things like this back in their home countries. I for one would like everybody to be able to come and stay for as long as they want, but not breaking the law and the rules, I think it is not a very good way to set foot in a foreign country, but it is only an opinion, it just shocks me when the perma tourist status is mentioned and accepted so losely ( blame it on my degree, I am a bachelor in law )

 

[sesamosinsal]

But they are in their country. Had they left then the would have been obliged to learn a new language. I've lived in a few countries & I have yet to be offered the driving test in English or any other language then the one(s) spoken in that country. I wonder if the driving test is offered in English here?

I think a lot of it has to do with demand. If there were a mass exodus of Americans to Argentina or another country where English wasn't spoken, you'd see similar services arise. You see this in the tourism sector, with most forms (like the tourist card many fill out on the plane) and advertisements being written in both Spanish and English.

Also, comparing most English-speaking immigrants in Argentina (or anywhere else) to the 12 million undocumented people in the United States is like comparing apples and oranges. We have a considerable advantage in many areas, namely educational and financial resources.

 

[mini]

I think a lot of it has to do with demand. If there were a mass exodus of Americans to Argentina or another country where English wasn't spoken, you'd see similar services arise. You see this in the tourism sector, with most forms (like the tourist card many fill out on the plane) and advertisements being written in both Spanish and English.

Also, comparing most English-speaking immigrants in Argentina (or anywhere else) to the 12 million undocumented people in the United States is like comparing apples and oranges. We have a considerable advantage in many areas, namely educational and financial resources.

I'm not just talking about English in Argentina. I think you didn't quite read what I wrote: In all the countries I've lived in none has offered government assistance in any other language but those spoken in the countries. & there certainly have been huge (compared to the local population) influxes of immigrants.

Not learning the language keeps people from integrating in to their adopted country. Having 12 million or more non integrated people is a huge problem.

The US needs to do so much more to deal with the influx of undocumented people. But I don't think accommodating every foreigners language needs is the solution.

 

[sesamosinsal]

I'm not just talking about English in Argentina. I think you didn't quite read what I wrote: In all the countries I've lived in none has offered government assistance in any other language but those spoken in the countries. & there certainly have been huge (compared to the local population) influxes of immigrants.

Not learning the language keeps people from integrating in to their adopted country. Having 12 million or more non integrated people is a huge problem.

The US needs to do so much more to deal with the influx of undocumented people. But I don't think accommodating every foreigners language needs is the solution.

I read what you wrote. You'd have to be more specific about the countries you have lived in. However, I would imagine that if those countries saw a huge influx of immigrants who were as economically and educational disadvantaged as many Latinos in Mexico and Central America are, the governments would provide services to ensure their integration into the community. For example, Canada provides government funding for English/French language courses. In the United States, some states and municipalities provide funding to immigrants to learn English.

And as I stated before, most countries translate documents for foreigners, such as tourists. Should the immigration forms tourists fill out on the plane just be in Chinese in China, Russian in Russia, Norwegian in Norway, and so on?

I'm not saying they should not learn English. I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that learning English and emigrating to a country is a process, a transition. We should know this better than anyone else, as most of us have encountered culture and language issues in Argentina. Therefore, providing a driver examination in Spanish, Chinese, and other languages which many immigrants in the U.S. tend to speak is helpful in that process. Also, allowing lawmakers who are bilingual to discuss important issues in a foreign language if they desire to do so is also helpful in that process. ElQueso, et al. can refer to it as "coddling," but I think of it as being inclusive.

"Why has the land of 'all men are created equal' forged countless ghettoes and intricate networks of social exclusion? Why the signs reading “No Irish Need Apply”? And why has each new generation of immigrants had to face down a rich glossary of now unmentionable epithets? Disdain for what is foreign is, sad to say, as American as apple pie, slavery and lynching."

- Kenneth Davis

 

[tangobob]

Well, thanks for the compliments I do acknowledge that most permatourists do not leech the system, and really my point is not about permas and illegal immigrants doing so, I just think that it is illegal to live in a country they way a lot of them do, and that most likely they would not dare do things like this back in their home countries. I for one would like everybody to be able to come and stay for as long as they want, but not breaking the law and the rules, I think it is not a very good way to set foot in a foreign country, but it is only an opinion, it just shocks me when the perma tourist status is mentioned and accepted so losely ( blame it on my degree, I am a bachelor in law )

As someone who still visits, as opposed to a perma tourist, I see the perma tourist route as possibly the only way I would stay longer. Argentina, you see, is somewhat unique in that it is so easy to enter, yet so difficult to stay pemenantly. When I bought my property, the thing that struck me most, was not the strict laws, but the fact that they are so complex that nobody seemed to understand them. Not the inmobilarias, not the banks or exchange houses, not even the Escribanos.
I seemed every time I dealt with someone different the rules changed, I even spent a day trying to get a CUIT even though every one (except the realtor) said it was not needed.
I do sympathise with your view, and think I would take a similar view at home in the UK, but I wonder why in a country founded on imigration they would make it so difficult.