In defense of tourists

[sesamosinsal]

It was an honest question. My apologies if I came across as condescending. I'm glad that you've had positive experiences here. I'm not saying a positive experience isn't possible. But I could say some of the same positive things about Argentina and the Argentines who I have met.

I'm not going to dispute your point about people believing in "community." I worked at a local NBC affiliate for a few years. If there ever were a local crisis, people would always call in trying to help. When I was in high school, we always held bake sales and went door-to-door collecting donations for the American Cancer Society and other organizations. Obviously, I would be shocked if any of this happened in Argentina.

So, my point here is not that people in the U.S. aren't friendly. I know we're friendly and good-hearted people. Around these parts, people always are asking, "Mornin', how are ya'?" in grocery stores, gas stations, etc. That is one of the things that I miss the most when I'm in Buenos Aires. It just seems so unnatural to me to say "Hola" or nothing at all when I'm going through the grocery check-out line.

The issue that I'm speaking to is that we're not pro-immigrant. (Shocking because everyone is the descendant of immigrants.) The amendments banning other languages in MO (and other states) and the state legislation in AZ show the negative attitude toward immigrants in the U.S. are examples of this. We've also been unable to work on immigration reform in the U.S. So, to say that we're accepting of foreigners beyond the idea of them being a tourist just isn't backed up by the facts.

Unfortunately, the anti-immigration sentiments are being exacerbated by this economic crisis. Many Americans will blame the "Mexicans" (Spanish-speakers = Mexicans) for taking all of the jobs. I've heard Argentines say the same about the Peruvians and the Bolivians. Thus, when it comes to attitudes regarding immigrants, I don't think Argentines are all that different than Americans, and I don't think that most countries have a positive attitude toward immigration.

 

[sesamosinsal]

In my post I was not talking about immigration policies but about people's attitudes towards foreigners. In my view, Americans are generally more open to new experiences, and to new people, than Argentines are.

But these laws reflect the will of the people. I'd say 80% of people voting for English-only amendments is quite a statement. The AZ law was passed through the AZ state legislature. These aren't just orders coming down from the Executive Branch.

(I already wrote a response to your previous post, but it was flagged for moderation.)

 

[SaraSara]

But these laws reflect the will of the people. I'd say 80% of people voting for English-only amendments is quite a statement. The AZ law was passed through the AZ state legislature. These aren't just orders coming down from the Executive Branch.

(I already wrote a response to your previous post, but it was flagged for moderation.)

I'm not familiar with the English-only amendment you mention. Could you explain what it is?

If it refers to English-only teaching in public schools, I'm all for it: not to discriminate against immigrants but to help them integrate quickly.

Some Americans believe all immigrants are desperate to Keep Their Ethnic Roots. In my opinion, that does not extend to language.

For five years I volunteered as a teacher's helper at my daughter's elementary school. Our school district included a trailer park, where many newly arrived immigrants landed. They came from Korea, Vietnam, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and points in between.

They - and their children - were desperate to blend in, and knew that the first step was to speak English. In fact, many children were forbidden by their parents to speak their native language. Parents made clear to us that their children should not be allowed to speak anything but English in school, despite having classmates who spoke their mother tongue.

Well, that was my own experience. Sorry I have no "official source" for it.

Now, something else: you say "80% of people voting for English-only amendments is quite a statement". That does not ring true, because not 80% of people bother to vote. Voter participation has hovered around 60% in Presidential elections (from 50% in 1988, to a high of 63% in 2008). Turnout in non-Presidential years is much lower, about 40%. So, I fail to see how Government policies can reflect the will of 80% of the people, as you say.

 

[nikad]

I will try to make them a little more shallow for you next time so you get it.
No I don't think so.
WHY? I know none of that about you.
And I assume you are not your mothers........
No i don't think so I know so, but it is not all paid by their taxes it is also paid by funds stolen from other countries.

Good, now you just proved you are a silly troll, welcome to my ignore list buddy!

 

[ElQueso]

I think its disingenuous to suggest that the United States is more open to foreigners than Argentina. At least Argentina provides a pathway to legalization for nationals of countries associated with MERCOSUR. If you're an undocumented worker in the United States, there is no feasible pathway whatsoever to legalization. Furthermore, the possibility of being a permatourist in the United States is, well, not possible.

I have yet to see any "Speak Spanish!" or "Use the voseo!" bumper stickers in Argentina. But I'll keep an eye out for them.

Well, I'm from Texas (although my folks live in Missouri). In Texas, there are two kinds of immigrants, basically.

1 - Hard workers who merge into society, learn the language and basically fit in. They are different, but nobody really minds, except a few idiot biggots, but believe it or not, they are not a very large group of people really.

2 - People who may or may not be hard workers (in many cases are) but in any event, they make no effort to merge into society. They demand that everything be printed in both Spanish and English. They are proud of not speaking English. They are going to remain separate and demand special treatment because they are a "minority."

I'm talking immigrants from all countries, not just Mexico. Illegal and legal immigrants - they all fall into one of the two basic categories above.

Most of the immigrants in general in Texas fall into #1. Of course, one of the biggest nationality of immigrants in Texas (after Mexican) is Vietnamese. In fact, there is a very large Vietnamese presence in Texas. I lived in Houston and as well we had tens of thousands of Chinese and Indian immigrants living in the city.

We, in Texas, have no beef whatsoever with #1. They are welcomed and they become a part fo the community and everything is cool, generally, except for at times a few stupid idiots.

#2 though, we have a problem with. Unfortunately, almost all that fall within that group are Latinos, and most of that population is Mexican.

You think Argentina is better than the US as relates to how immigrants (or even vistors) are treated? Maybe where you come from, but not where I do. Maybe Texas is just one of the best places in the States - I've always thought so.

I don't see government documents printed in both Spanish and English here. If you don't speak or read Spanish, you'd best bring a translator. As it absolutely SHOULD be. But guess what - in the States, in Texas at least, we have to print everything in both English and Spanish and provide extra help for those who speak Spanish only to understand what is going on.

Most of the immigrants to Argentina are poor from Paraguay, Bolivia, etc. Members of the Mercosur who can come here because of inter-governmental agreements under the Mercosur framework. They have to be let in.

They are REALLY looked down upon. At times as bad as blacks were treated in the US in the 50s. My married-into family here being Paraguayan, I've seen a lot of ugly stuff here related to prejudice, much worse than anything I ever saw in Texas - except for some of the Latino organizations who were reverse-rascists and called anyone not Latino rascist.

Here in Argentina, you don't have bumper stickers that tell people how you feel about the poor who come to Argentina (who, btw, already speak Spanish). You demonstrate it by treating them like shit, like second-class citizens.

As far as foreigners who come here to visit or live and don't speak Spanish - they are a minority here. They are not here in the magnitudes that they are in the States, and those that are here are not demanding that everyone speak English for the most part (again, there are always a few idiots). In fact, most of those who are here and can't speak the language can afford to hire someone to translate for them, and certainly do as far as getting things done officially. Not much choice on that, considering that everything is done in Spanish, and the government, to my knowledge, doesn't supply free translation services (as they shouldn't).

http://www.topix.com/forum/mx/mexico-city/TUS46RLDSQARIA2LQ

Just an example - it's no secret that a not that small percentage of Mexicans want Texas (and at least California, if not New Mexico and Arizona as well) back.

THOSE are the people we are talking about when we post "Speak English" bumper stickers on our pickup trucks in Texas, not honest, hard-working immigrants who learn to speak English and contribute to society.

 

[sesamosinsal]

2.4 million people in Missouri voted YES to this question on the 2008 (Presidential election year) ballot:

"Shall the Missouri Constitution be amended to add a statement that English shall be the language of all governmental meetings at which any public business is discussed, decided, or public policy is formulated whether conducted in person or by communication equipment including conference calls, video conferences, or Internet chat or message board?"

Now clearly, 2.4 million isn't every Missouri resident, but it is about half. I'd say it's a pretty good sample size. It would be impossible to get every single Missouri resident who is eligible to vote to go to the polls anyway.

I disagree with the amendment because it promotes isolation of immigrants. State and local leaders cannot discuss any issues publicly in a foreign language. Every bit of it has to be in English. Some may say, "Well, this is the United States, and we speak English." It's the dominant language, but it's not the official language in the U.S. There is no official language -- federally, anyway.

You're absolutely right that most people want to learn English. But from my experience, I know that it isn't an easy process to learn a language. It takes time and effort. Many Latino immigrants are working full-time to support themselves and their families. Thus, I have a lot of sympathy for those who are trying to learn. This amendment is a direct assault on the Latino community, as it attempts to shut them out of the political process.

Not only are MO state legislators trying to shut immigrants out of the political process, but they're also trying to stop them from taking the driver license examination in foreign languages. All of this "English only!" stuff reminds me of the literacy tests that we gave to black Americans. I'm sure we would have called it an "English test" if they hadn't spoken English yet.

Most linguists and communication researchers believe that language and culture (ethnic roots) are inextricably linked. In Michael Agar's book "Language Shock", he writes, "Whorf [U.S. linguist] showed that language--or languaculture, as I want to start saying now--shapes consciousness, shapes ways of seeing and acting, ways of thinking and feeling. When one realizes this truth, when one's own way comes to consciousness and alternatives come possible, then the concept of culture as something that happens to a person, instead of something 'those people' have, starts to make sense." Therefore, if you agree with linguists like Whorf, it is quite easy to understand these English-only laws. People jump to protecting their language from those who speak another language because an attack on their language is an attack on their culture.

 

[HowardinBA]

too deep for me this thread.......

 

[ElQueso]

Immigrants should be speaking English. If not, just like us, they have the ability to organize themselves into like-language groups and figure things out until they speak English good enough to understand.

To think that the government shold even think about conducting its business in anything other than English is ridiculous. Where do you stop? How many languages do you translate for? How much money do you spend making sure that people, who immigrated to an English-speaking country, can know what's going on because they don't speak English? If you don't provide the help for every damned language spoken, you are prejudiced against that group.

Get real.

The US is an English-speaking country. If you can't survive, whether you speak English, get support through your cultural supports in the country, or pay to have that support, you have no business immgrating to the US. The government has no business making sure new immigrants are coddled.

Imagine if there were a few million English-speaking expats in Argentina (instead of a few thousand!). A goodly percentage of the population. They refused to learn to speak Spanish. They began shouting to the government that it should conduct its business in English as well as Spanish. How do you think the Argentinos would react to that?

 

[SaraSara]

But from my experience, I know that it isn't an easy process to learn a language. It takes time and effort. Many Latino immigrants are working full-time to support themselves and their families. Thus, I have a lot of sympathy for those who are trying to learn. This amendment is a direct assault on the Latino community, as it attempts to shut them out of the political process.

I have first-hand knowledge on this subject. For nine years I worked as an interpreter for a law firm doing pro-bono work with immigrants, many of them undocumented. Our charter allowed us to take on only the poorest ones as clients, so we got the hardest cases.

Our Hispanics clients were eager to learn English - they were smart enough to realize that it was the key to a better life. They often worked two jobs and had no time for English classes, so they learned English from their children, who learned it in school. To a man, our clients were AGAINST children being taught in Spanish.

Perhaps English-only laws make things difficult for immigrants initially, but I believe it helps them in the long run. Having parallel-Spanish everything only perpetuates the "different but equal" concept, and is a good way of keeping people separate - and down.

I understand what you mean about the intent of this legislation being to keep Latinos down, but I think it will backfire and have exactly the opposite effect. Truth is, many Americans don't realize how smart, how resourceful, and how incredibly motivated Hispanics are.

A case in point is a man I met while interpreting at PT conferences. This Salvadorean not only did not speak English, but was illiterate in Spanish: never had a chance to go to school and could neither read nor write. Yet, he had managed to emigrate to the States, bring his wife and children, and start a laundry business doing the linens of several motels. There were many stories like that - wish I could remember them all.

That was in Virginia - I have no knowledge of conditions in Missouri, having only driven across it a few times and spent a couple of nights in Columbia, a lovely college town.

 

[sesamosinsal]

Immigrants should be speaking English. If not, just like us, they have the ability to organize themselves into like-language groups and figure things out until they speak English good enough to understand.

To think that the government shold even think about conducting its business in anything other than English is ridiculous. Where do you stop? How many languages do you translate for? How much money do you spend making sure that people, who immigrated to an English-speaking country, can know what's going on because they don't speak English? If you don't provide the help for every damned language spoken, you are prejudiced against that group.

Get real.

The US is an English-speaking country. If you can't survive, whether you speak English, get support through your cultural supports in the country, or pay to have that support, you have no business immgrating to the US. The government has no business making sure new immigrants are coddled.

Imagine if there were a few million English-speaking expats in Argentina (instead of a few thousand!). A goodly percentage of the population. They refused to learn to speak Spanish. They began shouting to the government that it should conduct its business in English as well as Spanish. How do you think the Argentinos would react to that?

I never said that the government should conduct its business in Spanish. I said that the government should have that option. In Missouri, some cities and towns have a predominant Spanish-speaking population. Here's a possibility: Some local lawmakers might speak Spanish, and they may want want to hold a forum for their Spanish-speaking constituents to ensure that they understand the details of a particular piece of legislation. The Missouri Constitution would now forbid this meeting. I think this is unfair, especially if these constituents are taxpayers.

I think it's very convenient for us to ignore the social factors. Most people don't emigrate to the U.S. for the hell of it. The vast majority of Latinos come here out of desperation. My great-great-grandmother came to the U.S. from Germany; I'm told her English was never perfect, by the way. Her family didn't leave Germany because they loved the U.S. They left Germany in search of a better life.

I've met several Latino immigrants in Missouri. Most of them work low-paying jobs and have to raise a family. If they're undocumented, it's impossible to get the financial aid to go to school. If they are documented, it's impossible to go to school because they don't have the time. Furthermore, some of them have never had any formal education in their lives. Some of them can't even write the alphabet.

It's always ironic when Americans say, "Just learn English!" when most of them have never learned a second language themselves. The government shouldn't be forced to translate everything into every language. But for the good of us all, the government should be allowed to help people assimilate. As we all should be aware, this process doesn't happen overnight.