Is Argentina being sabotaged from abroad?

jbeas176

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the US has no interest. even when trump put tariffs on china and stopped buying soy from the US and starting buying soy from argentina, argentina bought soy from the US because they went through a drought. bigger fish to fry elsewhere. think maufacturing is going to be more localized in the future with logistics and taxes it makes sense.
 

Sequoia1321

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the US has no interest. even when trump put tariffs on china and stopped buying soy from the US and starting buying soy from argentina, argentina bought soy from the US because they went through a drought. bigger fish to fry elsewhere. think maufacturing is going to be more localized in the future with logistics and taxes it makes sense.
“Bigger fish to fry” unfortunately is the problem. If you try to be a bigger fish then the bad guys will take more interest. Also, I would say the US is not necessarily a single ideology but a country of various ideologies and cultures that are often in conflict, sometimes good and sometimes evil, and it depends which one happens to be in power at the time. And I’m not necessarily only talking about the presidency and congress, but it could be as simple as a bad person who happened to get a job at a government department for example. And here we’re only talking about the government aspects. These things are also going to happen on a personal and corporate level as well. Anytime you have an interaction between humans there is going to be some possibility that some bad ideology or culture will get its way.
 

Renzi

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Peronism, the defining political force of 20th century Argentina until today, was modeled on European Fascism (Nazi Germany, Italy and Spain...) Expert regimes in creating and blaming “the other”.

Blaming “others” is what fascists or any other type of populists with all their idealistic rhetoric do best when reality doesn’t go their way (which it never will when the state-centric model they adopt is simply unsustainable)

Listening to a Peronist, K or sympathizer blame all of argentina’s ills on a global conspiracy, hegemonic media or a one-time ex president is like listening to Hitler blaming minorities, Franco (or Isabel Perón...) blaming communists or Mussolini blaming opposition political parties. Same speech different words.
Have you ever looked at a chronology of Argentinian history of the 20th century? The Peronists were out of power for far more than they were in power, and even the military governments didn't improve the economy substantially, if at all. Peron was (elected) president from 1946-55, and from '73-74, Isabel until '76. There wasn't another "Peronist" government until NCK in 2003 (and no Menem, from '89 to '99 doesn't count because he disavowed his earlier Peronista ties and governed as a neoliberal). For much of the period between '55 and '73 the party was banned.

Your blaming of Peronism for everything sounds just as unhinged and irrational as the rhetoric you accuse them of. And when you start comparing JDP to mass murderers like Franco and Mussolini (who have more in common with Videla, if anyone), that's just lazy thinking.
 

Dougie

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Your blaming of Peronism for everything sounds just as unhinged and irrational as the rhetoric you accuse them of. And when you start comparing JDP to mass murderers like Franco and Mussolini (who have more in common with Videla, if anyone), that's just lazy thinking.
Peron being compared to the fascists of Europe isn't something unique. It's been discussed for decades and is pretty well accepted within academia.


Not that I personally believe that Peron is the equal of Mussolini. I don't think that's what most people discussing it believe either.
 

Alpinista

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Have you ever looked at a chronology of Argentinian history of the 20th century? The Peronists were out of power for far more than they were in power, and even the military governments didn't improve the economy substantially, if at all. Peron was (elected) president from 1946-55, and from '73-74, Isabel until '76. There wasn't another "Peronist" government until NCK in 2003 (and no Menem, from '89 to '99 doesn't count because he disavowed his earlier Peronista ties and governed as a neoliberal). For much of the period between '55 and '73 the party was banned.

Your blaming of Peronism for everything sounds just as unhinged and irrational as the rhetoric you accuse them of. And when you start comparing JDP to mass murderers like Franco and Mussolini (who have more in common with Videla, if anyone), that's just lazy thinking.
Alberto Fernandez is for you a peronist or not? I am asking because an increasing number of life-long Peronists have already abandoned him and deny that he is a "real Peronist" (e.g. Guillermo Moreno, former minister under Nestor Kirchner). Regarding Menem: as long as his plan was working, no one in his party denied that he was a Peronist. Even the very Nestor Kirchner branding him as the best president ever at that time. Obviously that changed when his convertibility plan came crashing down and with it the whole country.

And regarding comparing him to the European fascists in terms "outcome" then of course you are right. He didn't neither commited mass murders nor did he commit war crimes. Idealogically the similarities and sympathies are pretty obvious to me (his time in Italy with Mussolini, his exile in Spain under Franco's protection, not to mention the mass immigration of Nazi criminals after the second world war which he actively supported). I have little doubt that - if the Axis power had won the war - Argentina would have followed this path (or certainly not opposed it).
 

Wade K.

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“Bigger fish to fry” unfortunately is the problem. If you try to be a bigger fish then the bad guys will take more interest. Also, I would say the US is not necessarily a single ideology but a country of various ideologies and cultures that are often in conflict, sometimes good and sometimes evil, and it depends which one happens to be in power at the time. And I’m not necessarily only talking about the presidency and congress, but it could be as simple as a bad person who happened to get a job at a government department for example. And here we’re only talking about the government aspects. These things are also going to happen on a personal and corporate level as well. Anytime you have an interaction between humans there is going to be some possibility that some bad ideology or culture will get its way.
And how pray tell would a country of 45 million with socialist leanings become a big fish?
 

Sequoia1321

Registered
And how pray tell would a country of 45 million with socialist leanings become a big fish?
Not sure what you’re implying there, that socialist leanings won’t become a big fish, that 45 million population can’t become a big fish? If Britain became a big fish as the British Empire then it’s some evidence that it can happen with small countries as well. Also, they can become a big fish by creating a union with regional powers, or even with far away powers perhaps, sort of like what we have with NATO, EU, if you’re part of that system than you’re a more powerful country, sure not the boss of the whole thing maybe, but sort of like a state in the USA, so in that case that would make you a part of a big fish rather than the prey of a big fish. Even let’s say a country is not on the potential threat radar of a predatory culture of a strong country, the fact is that a predatory culture will do what it does, prey on others, both internationally, corporately, and personally, in the transactions or interactions where this predatory mentality is involved. We’re talking about here basically a culture, and it can exert its force in multiple ways. For example, if you’r a minority in the USA chances are you’ll be getting extra mistreated by people who see you as their prey for lack of a better word. And if these predatory people are in positions of power, such as president, congressman, solider, beaurocrat, businessman, etc., they’re going to be exerting their predatory tendencies on those “others.” So these predatory injustices are a constant happening and not necessarily just based on whether this country is a big fish or not or can become a big fish in the future.
 

antipodean

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Have you ever looked at a chronology of Argentinian history of the 20th century? The Peronists were out of power for far more than they were in power, and even the military governments didn't improve the economy substantially, if at all. Peron was (elected) president from 1946-55, and from '73-74, Isabel until '76. There wasn't another "Peronist" government until NCK in 2003 (and no Menem, from '89 to '99 doesn't count because he disavowed his earlier Peronista ties and governed as a neoliberal). For much of the period between '55 and '73 the party was banned.

Your blaming of Peronism for everything sounds just as unhinged and irrational as the rhetoric you accuse them of. And when you start comparing JDP to mass murderers like Franco and Mussolini (who have more in common with Videla, if anyone), that's just lazy thinking.
  1. Where does it say you need to be a mass murderer (at least with a death toll of X) to be authoritarian, populist or facist? Let's never forget the AAA death squad and extrajudicial killings of communists and other "enemies" in Argentina's dirty war was started by the wife of JDP and other PJ politicians - 1,122 victims is still mass murder by my count. Let's also not forget that Peron et al were sheltered by Franco while in exile and he was a fond supporter of such regimes. For sure JDP was "less bloodthirsty" and more tolerant to democratic mechanisms than those guys, but it does not change the fact he and his movement were modelled after them and a big chunk of their ideologies.

  2. During the 20th century Argentina was only really democratic between 46-55 (Peronism), 73-76 (Peronism) and 83 onwards, mostly under Peronism. Prior 1912 only the landed elite could vote and prior to 1947 women could not vote. "Democracy" prior to 1930 has little relevance on today's Argentina other than the emergence of the UCR and social democratic principles. Thus when I refer to the 20th century and impact political parties have had on this country, we are down to a century of around 30 years. While Peronism suffered additional persecution under the dictatorships, it was not its only victim. No parties had the opportunity to be in power and few/ no one could vote. Today's Argentina is undeniably shaped by Peronism in terms of laws, economic models, systems and people's political sympathies and not the legacy of various military dictatorships other than an overwhelming rejection of the military and its involvement in state affairs.

  3. Argentina has three branches of political power. It is lazy thinking to only count presidential terms when considering the influence of political movements and parties on (democratic) political power in Argentina.

  4. Menem was not a Peronist?
    • 1987. PJ won the legislative elections by a narrow margin.
    • 1989. Menem won the presidency under a PJ campaign and membership. PJ won control of both houses.
    • 1993. PJ won the legislative elections by a large margin.
    • 1994. PJ won the constitutional assembly elections.
    • 1995. Menem won the presidency under a PJ campaign and membership.
    • 1997. PJ LOST the legislative elections to UCR.
    • 1999. Menem LOST the legislative elections to UCR.
    • Just because you don't like his neo-lib economic model does not make him any less Peronist. Where does it say in the manual for Peronism otherwise? You campaign as a Peronist, you get votes from Peronists, you are a Peronist. The laws and decisions made during these times were Peronist laws and decisions.
 
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