Is Argentina being sabotaged from abroad?

[antipodean]

Actually Argentina just acquired 4 Offshore Patrol Vessels

Nobody knows if Argentina will actually acquire jet fighters. This talk has been going on for over a decade and so far nothing ever came out of it. But US$600M will not buy much, be it used or new.

Yet they could have allocated that 2022 budget on Orion or Posseidon maritime patrol aircraft instead.
Fighter jets don’t do much to stop or deter illegal fishing.

 

[camberiu]

Yet they could have allocated that 2022 budget on Orion or Posseidon maritime patrol aircraft instead.
Fighter jets don’t do much to stop or deter illegal fishing.

You don't need an Orion (which Argentina already has) or a Poseidon to deter illegal fishing either. What you need are OPVs to enforce the actual exclusion zone and at most a converted regional transport aircraft or private jet into maritime patrol craft to provide long range surveillance and tracking.

Something like this or even an inexpensive area surveillance drone like the IAI Heron

 

[Dougie]

I'd say they ignore the issue not because China or some other country is pressuring them not enforce their rights, but because Argentina doesn't have the capabilities to do so.

Chinese Fishing Fleet Still Baits Argentina

China’s distant-water fishing fleet is once again engaging in suspicious and potentially illegal fishing near Argentine waters

insightcrime.org

 

[antipodean]

You don't need an Orion or a Poseidon to deter illegal fishing either. What you need are OPVs to enforce the actual exclusion zone and at most a converted regional transport aircraft or private jet into maritime patrol craft to provide long range surveillance and tracking.

Something like this or even an inexpensive area surveillance drone like the IAI Heron

I’d tend to agree if there were better results in this area or if they had a small coast line or larger navy. But small navy and huge coast line with little in the way of ports and airports along it... the illegal fishing boats will be back out in international waters before a patrol craft even leaves port at Bahia Blanca. Rapid armed response with decent range is an essential deterrent to stop/ detain the vessels while inside Argentine jurisdiction or foresee where they may enter to direct Maritime resources in that direction. With a multi billion dollar economic impact, investing more on these capabilities has more sense that investing in a refurbished VIP fleet or fighter jets to perform propaganda at airshows (which let’s face it, is all they’d be doing anyway).

I’d agree this is not foreign sabotage of Argentina, but a consequence of Argentina’s own decisions on how it spends its money, and if any “conspiracy” element involved, it would be that of good old fashioned corruption.

 

[camberiu]

Rapid armed response with decent range is an essential deterrent to stop/ detain the vessels while inside Argentine jurisdiction or foresee where they may enter to direct Maritime resources in that direction.

That is not how it works. You don't respond to illegal fishing with an armed Orion shooting anti-ship missiles at unarmed fishing trawlers. No country in the world does that, not even North Korea.

Oceanic Exclusive Economic zones are enforced with OPVs, supported by airborne recon and tracking. There is no way around that.

 

[antipodean]

That is not how it works. You don't respond to illegal fishing with an armed Orion shooting anti-ship missiles at unarmed fishing trawlers. No country in the world does that, not even North Korea.

Oceanic Exclusive Economic zones are enforced with OPVs, supported by airborne recon and tracking. There is no way around that.

Didn't say the armed response needs to be from aircraft
If you have a fleet of suspicious/ problematic fishing vessels far out at sea you first need range to find and track them to have armed forces ready to respond rapidly should they come inside or close to territorial waters. Given the lack of air bases around the coast of Argentina, a learjet, drone or beech aircraft just don't project far enough or stay in the air long enough to detect risks beyond the horizon to allow for a quick enough response.
(My reference would be Australia and New Zealand who have pretty successful programs preventing illegal fishing in their EEZs in the southern oceans using these types of aircraft)

 

[Redpossum]

You both make valid points, no doubt.

Jet fighters are more sexy, but maritime patrol aircraft combined with patrol boats would be the more effective option. Especially given that neither need be anywhere near state-of-the art in order to do this simple job efficiently. I don't know any specifics, but I suspect that Embraer would be able to supply something highly cost-effective in line of maritime patrol aircraft.

If only Brazil and Argentina and the rest of Mercosur could put aside their old rivalries and actually work together...

***EDIT***
I responded to the last post on the previous page without realizng there was a second page. I see you guys are already ahead of me. This is the kind of conversation I wish we could have more often. We are actually being polite, making helpful suggestions, and more or less agreeing with each other.

Camberiu, what is that aircraft you posted a pic of? Is it an Embraer product?

 

[Jim Prideaux]

It’s refreshing to see so many respondents attributing Argentina’s downfall to the criminality of its own political leaders and their local commercial partners. It’s been an interesting journey learning how far the tentacles of corruption reach, killing competition in its wake. Speaking of corruption is inadequate. Argentinians themselves speak of a dictatorship, which has stripped them of dignity and opportunity, both theirs and their families’. People work hard but they keep falling behind. They never have enough, working two or three jobs. I marvel at their energy and resourcefulness, which take a toll on their privacy — crammed into close quarters with extended family to economize — and their health — suffering bouts of extreme stress over money. The recent incident of minister of security Aníbal Fernández’s menacing tweet to political cartoonist Nic is evidence of the tyranny and also illustrates the impunity with which these officials operate, unapologetically threatening the children of dissidents, his masters in the Casa Rosada merely slapping his wrist for exposing their game. Moreover, the ability of the political parties, both those in and out of power, to project as energetically as they do a bright future is risible. It’s equally farcical how supposedly serious news outlets and pundits cover politics as if there were any other story than corruption and tyranny. Of course, the outlets are controlled by the very same parasitic individuals who control the government. Does an open political system still exist? I suppose if the elections are not fraudulent, an open political system can still be argued to exist, even if we were to overlook how votes are bought with bonos and other largesse. (Personally, I assume that fraud is endemic to elections here but has yet to be exposed. How could it not be with the sort of people who are in power?)

 

[lunar]

... even if we were to overlook how votes are bought with bonos and other largesse. (Personally, I assume that fraud is endemic to elections here but has yet to be exposed...

So, you can lure voters by funding food stamps programs, paying off student loans, turning illegal immigrants into citizens overnight, and promising to "Make America Great Again", and at the same time remain a perfect democracy. But utilizing "bonos and other largesse" any country crosses the line, and becomes a dictatorship, right?

 

[camberiu]

Camberiu, what is that aircraft you posted a pic of? Is it an Embraer product?

Yes, it is an EMBRAER EMB110 Bandeirante (a low cost utility aircraft) converted into a maritime patrol craft by adding an off-the-self naval search radar onto the nose.
You can do that with pretty much any commercial aircraft, like a private jet, a regional transport plane or even a drone. It is highly cost effective if your goal is to go after smugglers, illegal fishing, etc...