Is Argentina's Economy "unstopable" Or "growing And Growing"

[ElQueso]

Perhaps it would be better that the state put it´s mind to creating real jobs that other people pay for than imaginary ones which they have to pay for, that's putting it as simply as I can.

There is a lot of good political space in between hysterical and ultimately meaningless bogeyman catchall of "neo-liberal" , the kleptocracy of menem and corrupt populism of the current administration.

If only someone would fill it.

I completely agree with you about Menem and his supposed "neo-liberal" administration. It doesn't matter what kind of "system" you use - if the populace is used to corruption, and the people in power continue with corruption and no one holds them accountable, you will have nothing better than what you had under Menen - or Cristina. Or the military. People like Cristina will cook the books to make things look good - but all you really have to do is apply a little logic (like looking at graphs critically instead of accepting that the government says things are good and accepting that) and take a good, hard look around.

The only issue I have with what you're saying (I know, you were making a simple statement and probably mean pretty much what follows, I'm just clarifying) is that one would be putting a responsibility on the government (State) to create jobs. The only jobs the government (State) creates is government jobs. Government jobs add nothing to the economy, but rather take from it (which is what I believe you were saying).

It is entrepreneurs who create jobs. Usually these are people with money (don't have to be rich!) and an idea to provide a service or product, which the government should have absolutely zero hand in. The easier it is to create even one job, the less people need in order to be entrepreneurs and remove the requirement that it be only the rich or reasonably well-off who create jobs.

Of course, I believe in no State, but that's OK I know that's a dream, and it doesn't have to go that far to benefit the people - a minimal government would suffice in the short term (problem is, governments always grow and become tyrannies to one extent or another by their very definition, which is why I'm against government in general).

What should the government do to allow jobs to be created? Get the hell out of the market as much as they possibly can and provide a solid legal framework that is the same for everyone. The closer you can get to that point, the better off everyone is going to be.

But here and most other places in Latin America (and now too many in the US at least), people don't want to work for what they get. They want Big Brother to set things up all nice and neat so they don't actually have to contribute - they think that all the money the "rich" have (and I'm considered rich here, which is completely ridiculous) just needs to be distributed so everyone can have some and everyone will be happy. This may be possible in the future when everyone can have their little nanotechnology machines that will create whatever they want without worrying about labor, production, shipping, etc (although still one will have to worry about getting raw materials), but until then we poor humans have to work for what we want.

The more strain the people who don't want to work put on those who do, the less everyone gets. Or the more those in power listen to those with money and slant things so those in power and those who have money can have things they way they want, the worse it is for everyone else.

I want to work because I know that's what I have to do to get what I want, although it would be lovely if I didn't have to. One day I plan on being rich in spite of the governments of the world, and I am busting my ass every day to make that happen, not waiting for the government to set up some kind of twisted wealth redistribution so that I can have a bigger piece of a single pie (that would shrink anyway).

Most people just want to do the minimum they can to survive, and that's OK with me, as long as they realize that doing the minimum means they get the minimum and don't start looking to me to put money in their pockets beyond what they work for.

As far as those who truly need help - people need to learn to be human. When one group of people forces another group of people to "help" in spite of their beliefs, it is force, plain and simple, and not at all humanitarian. It is tyranny.

 

[ElQueso]

I think it was you the one who brought the chart...

You don't understand satire, I believe.

The last I'll say arguing with you on this subject:

Paraguay's chart was growing and growing (though not unstoppable). Argentina's chart rose quite a bit (at the beginning of 2012 I could see why you might thinking it was growing and growing, but there's no excuse at all, today) and then leveled off. Flat. I was showing you that it is neither unstoppable or growing and growing. And in fact, with a little bit of logical analysis one would realize that it's not even as good as it shows because the government here is full of liars and thieves and the reality doesn't match the false data in the last couple of years.

A (political and economic) child could probably make the chart grow as good as Cristina did. Can she keep it going up? Let's check back in two years and see what the chart looks like. I know at least which direction it will go, as do the majority of the people who are concerned about such things.

 

[Matiasba]

You don't understand satire, I believe.

The last I'll say arguing with you on this subject:

Paraguay's chart was growing and growing (though not unstoppable). Argentina's chart rose quite a bit (at the beginning of 2012 I could see why you might thinking it was growing and growing, but there's no excuse at all, today) and then leveled off. Flat. I was showing you that it is neither unstoppable or growing and growing. And in fact, with a little bit of logical analysis one would realize that it's not even as good as it shows because the government here is full of liars and thieves and the reality doesn't match the false data in the last couple of years.

A (political and economic) child could probably make the chart grow as good as Cristina did. Can she keep it going up? Let's check back in two years and see what the chart looks like. I know at least which direction it will go, as do the majority of the people who are concerned about such things.

We evidently are seeing two different charts. I only see continued growth (with the world crisis which I talked before in the middle).
I agree with you that probably the chart will be different, for the wrong, in two years, but that would not be the entirre fault of the Ks since we have elections next year. Some analysts say we could have growth next year, since the recession is not that strong (nothing compared in intensity and durability with the recession of menemismo 1998-2002).

 

[ElQueso]

Why are you engaging with that idiot?

I'm a masochist. Heh. I keep thinking that something will trigger and he'll have an epiphany. He has a deeper hole to come out of than I did. But too deep for me I think - I've run out of rope.

Matias, you seem like a good guy, just a little blindered I just can't keep pointing out the obvious and have you ignore the facts when they're right in front of you. I sincerely don't wish anything bad for you or the people of Argentina, but it's coming. And quicker than two years.

The taking of oath and entering into office of a newly elected official doesn't magically signal the changing of the economy. The poor person who inherits the office next will have inherited a mess that can't easily be straightened out, particularly when the populace fights any measure that means they will have to actually do something they don't like to get out of trouble: Work and work hard and work together.

But of course you and every other person who supports this government will ignore the facts and blame the new person, probably within weeks of their assuming office.

 

[Matiasba]

Yes, they will inherit a mess..... Do me a favour, forget GDP, unemployment, poverty numbers and have a look to the debt problem. Compare with other governments, compare with the past, compare the debt as a percentage of GDP. Consider the zillions of dollars these K governments paid from debts taken from other governments. Compare the debt from the Ks with other governments.

Or, for example, check health, or education. Argentina invests 6,5% of its GDP in education. The others, past governments, like 2%. Mexico, like 2%... and 1% of this grown GDP goes for universities. Thats a lot, I ve heard from different proffesors that they actually did not have a clue of what to do with the money. For instance, the entire amount from MEGAMINERÍA goes for University programs, for research, for teachers salaries. Thats billion dollars. There are tons of scientists that were working abroad, lets say, for NASA, for France, for other development countries, in very sophisticated industries, well, they created a plan to bring them here. And the great majority of these scientists living and working abroad were educated from State Universities, that of course has a cost to the state. Like 50k thousands each scientist that the State never sees again because they are not capable to reward the country that gave their knowledge. The State invests to educate people but then cant absorb them and so they migrate to other states so they can give them all their knowledge to make them grow. Well, this is changing, at least there are intentions, and numbers. Reality. Lots of them returned. Industry grew these years, we have for instance, the first argentine satellite.

 

[Pensador]

Argentina certainly doesnt need employment practices currently in place in the US or the UK. Unions should be an effective counter balance to employer demands.

Unfortunately in the US, with zero hour contracts and lousy annual leave, I would argue that employment law is too pro-employer and that in Argentina peronism and collective bargaining (demanding and threatening really) has pushed the balance too far in the other direction.

As two grown men let us not entertain fantasies or idealistic dream states stemming from nationalistic propaganda that leads to brain washed thought patterns that have no foundation in reality. Are we brave enough for that Magico Gonzalez? As men with working minds can we look at the facts, the math and actual results and make logical conclusions that are not based dysfunctional political doctrines.

Can we?

Actually the employment practices in the US have made me a very wealthy man considering the fact that I spent the first 41 years of my life as an employee. Actually more so than my wildest dreams growing up in a poor family in the 1970s and 80s. In reality there is no excuse for you at this time in history to not experience the same results in your life. If you are younger you should be able to exceed me 100 times. The question Magico is, will you?

At your fingertips you have access to information, understanding and education that I could have never have imagined in my youth. What will you do with that, your individal talents and your mind?

Going back only a few decades I only had a few things to work with. Diligence, practice and seeking excellence. Yeah I know it sounds like bull$h/t but damn it paid off. I admire your English and involvement here. Keep it up, expose your mind and understanding and hopefully you can break the limitations within your thinking and understanding as time passes.

That being said let’s get into reality…

Peron was the destruction of Argentina and as a result the only thing Argentina has produced in the last 50 years is Messi ,Meradona and a Pope. Beyond that the only thing you have to brag about is the fact that you have defaulted as a country more times than other country in the G20. Which I really don’t believe Argentina even belongs in. If you ask me Argentina should be banned for misconduct. Of course your national problems are always the result of what others have done to you. Get this! No one has done anything to you, you have done it to yourselves and there are no excuses.

Economics business and employess...

As far as I am concerned employees that are not actively pursuing excellence do not deserve anything more than a pay check. Employees think they are valuable I think they are replaceable. Unless they are working towards excellence that is. In fact if I see an employee that is working towards excellence but struggling or having problems, I will make adjustments for that employee.

Actually there is nothing I enjoy more in life than watching a young man work, gain experience and excel. Except for rewarding that man’s work with bonuses, raises and more opportunity to excel. Peronism cuts me off from that and limits what is possible in a mans life.

Then again if I see someone that I know is capable of excellence being a slacker I would rather fire them. And put someone else in their former employment position that wants to excell and produce. And I do not believe the fired employee deserves anything beyond getting fired and going home jobless not knowing how they are going to pay the bills or feed their children. Because perhaps the getting fired experience and trama is the only thing that will motivate them the next time they have an opportunity. Peronism limits that also.

The reality is, this is the world we live in. And the reality is Peronism and other forms of ideology in your politics and culture have turned the great potential of what could have been the MIGHTY Argentina into one of the greatest failures in history. You had the potential to be neck and neck with the USA but instead you are neck and neck with Venzuela.

American flags with vultures painted on them. Argentina should be ashamed. There are no vultures, you have not paid your bills. You took money based on contracts and did not pay it back. No one forced you to take the money or the contracts. You have no one to blame but yourselves. Many of you work in negro, run businesses in negro, exchange money in negro. You evade taxes and do not support your national currency. Then like senseless children lacking understanding you complain, cry and have protests about economics, inflation and your human rights. Honesty it’s completely ridiculous.

The truth be known I love Argentina perhaps as much you do Magico. My lovely wife is Argentinian her family has treated me like a son. Your culture has enriched me and my understanding of life. I am truly thankful for that. But I am just not going to buy into the bull$h/t. I hope one day you can see it for what it is.

 

[wild_horses]

Queso, for what I understood you are a developer, right? So you must be a very logical person.

The graph that you uploaded, in 2003 started in a little more than 100 and right now is a little more than 600, please tell me what does that mean?

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

As two grown men let us not entertain fantasies or idealistic dream states stemming from nationalistic propaganda that leads to brain washed thought patterns that have no foundation in reality. Are we brave enough for that Magico Gonzalez? As men with working minds can we look at the facts, the math and actual results and make logical conclusions that are not based dysfunctional political doctrines.

Can we?

Actually the employment practices in the US have made me a very wealthy man considering the fact that I spent the first 41 years of my life as an employee. Actually more so than my wildest dreams growing up in a poor family in the 1970s and 80s. In reality there is no excuse for you at this time in history to not experience the same results in your life. If you are younger you should be able to exceed me 100 times. The question Magico is, will you?

At your fingertips you have access to information, understanding and education that I could have never have imagined in my youth. What will you do with that, your individal talents and your mind?

Going back only a few decades I only had a few things to work with. Diligence, practice and seeking excellence. Yeah I know it sounds like bull$h/t but damn it paid off. I admire your English and involvement here. Keep it up, expose your mind and understanding and hopefully you can break the limitations within your thinking and understanding as time passes.

That being said let’s get into reality…

Peron was the destruction of Argentina and as a result the only thing Argentina has produced in the last 50 years is Messi ,Meradona and a Pope. Beyond that the only thing you have to brag about is the fact that you have defaulted as a country more times than other country in the G20. Which I really don’t believe Argentina even belongs in. If you ask me Argentina should be banned for misconduct. Of course your national problems are always the result of what others have done to you. Get this! No one has done anything to you, you have done it to yourselves and there are no excuses.

Economics business and employess...

As far as I am concerned employees that are not actively pursuing excellence do not deserve anything more than a pay check. Employees think they are valuable I think they are replaceable. Unless they are working towards excellence that is. In fact if I see an employee that is working towards excellence but struggling or having problems, I will make adjustments for that employee.

Actually there is nothing I enjoy more in life than watching a young man work, gain experience and excel. Except for rewarding that man’s work with bonuses, raises and more opportunity to excel. Peronism cuts me off from that and limits what is possible in a mans life.

Then again if I see someone that I know is capable of excellence being a slacker I would rather fire them. And put someone else in their former employment position that wants to excell and produce. And I do not believe the fired employee deserves anything beyond getting fired and going home jobless not knowing how they are going to pay the bills or feed their children. Because perhaps the getting fired experience and trama is the only thing that will motivate them the next time they have an opportunity. Peronism limits that also.

The reality is, this is the world we live in. And the reality is Peronism and other forms of ideology in your politics and culture have turned the great potential of what could have been the MIGHTY Argentina into one of the greatest failures in history. You had the potential to be neck and neck with the USA but instead you are neck and neck with Venzuela.

American flags with vultures painted on them. Argentina should be ashamed. There are no vultures, you have not paid your bills. You took money based on contracts and did not pay it back. No one forced you to take the money or the contracts. You have no one to blame but yourselves. Many of you work in negro, run businesses in negro, exchange money in negro. You evade taxes and do not support your national currency. Then like senseless children lacking understanding you complain, cry and have protests about economics, inflation and your human rights. Honesty it’s completely ridiculous.

The truth be known I love Argentina perhaps as much you do Magico. My lovely wife is Argentinian her family has treated me like a son. Your culture has enriched me and my understanding of life. I am truly thankful for that. But I am just not going to buy into the bull$h/t. I hope one day you can see it for what it is.

You seem to have imagined an entire scenario where I am Argentine and sticking up for Argentina. I am glad I am not in this instance, as I would have read your message as patronising misty eyed hokum, frankly.

I am not.

I am Irish, work for a US multinational in a regional role, having worked extensively in Europe in a similar position.

I am not interested in the no govt-small govt-big govt spectrum of debate. Your experience is just that, I don't think it's common or universal and wealth distribution patterns bear that point out without me getting involved. It's nice that you believe thar hard work gets you too the top, but it's not a universal truth. I imagine you are aware that the epoch in which you grew up and the current one present vastly different barriers to education and employment, ones which are not lept over solely via "hard work".

A solid legal framework, regulated unions and employer flexibility should exist in tandem. My point is simple, and doesn't require an emotional argument nor an imagined foe to present itself.

Explain to me exactly how someone working on a zero hour contract, with no financial recourse to get themselves through college, or even without the intellectual capacity to do so, can "hard work" their way up and out of the current US poverty trap.

Not possible. +

Lucky you grew up in an era before the wealth distribution pattern we are stuck with took hold and barriers to education and zero hour contracts were created. Can we imagine that, can we ? Can we not be highly subjective and maybe take a broader view of the problem in a contemporary context? Might that not be more important than your own personal Dick Whittington story?

The game has changed, the pitch has tilted and effective unions are a necessary counterbalance. I understand that in the hyper sensitive north american context this amounts to socialism, or worse the old pinko bogeyman, however it's not. It's simply a counterbalance to an employer dominated playing field and a legal framework which does not support any type of social negotiation or bargaining. This is again all outside of my personal needs, I'm all right jack gringo, but I am not so lacking in empathy (even though I might vote Macri!) that I cannot see the need for some balance between employer and employee. Not a very American concept, but us Europeans are fairly fond of it.

A little more regulation might might have avoided any myriad of crisis, that's another discussion.

I don't believe for one second in libertarianism in any of it's guises, cards on the table, I think it's a horribly selfish high income bracket fetish. Let us get richer, "charity" can look after the poor. I won't debate it for a second as experience tells me it's about as worthwhile as launching yourself into online climate debate or worse religion. No thanks, not going there. It's all wrapped up in the same selfishness that allows us to think that no employee bargaining is a good idea.

Again, I'm not in a union, I don't need to be, thanks for patronising me with your campfire tales of a how you made your fortune, it´s not inspirational to me or relevant. However, there are folks to whom it a well regulated union could be the difference between social mobility or not, to me that's important.

PS. Just for fun, google Magico Gonzalez, he's not Argentine.

PPS. Assumptions, what is it the say about them again....

 

[Dublin2BuenosAires]

Pensador, hopefully the reply I typed make it's on to the site, I suspect not as I seem to be barred from defending myself.

That said, I am Irish, working for a multinational in a regional role.

I wont type the rest out....again.

 

[EdRooney]

I concur wholeheartedly with Pensador's assessment of Mágico and his ilk. In fact I've taken the liberty of providing a few links to show just how messed up they are:

You have no one to blame but yourselves. Many of you work in negro, run businesses in negro, exchange money in negro. You evade taxes and do not support your national currency. Then like senseless children lacking understanding you complain, cry and have protests about economics, inflation and your human rights. Honesty it’s completely ridiculous.

The truth be known I love Argentina perhaps as much you do Magico. My lovely wife is Argentinian her family has treated me like a son. Your culture has enriched me and my understanding of life. I am truly thankful for that. But I am just not going to buy into the bull$h/t. I hope one day you can see it for what it is.