Is Argentina's Economy "unstopable" Or "growing And Growing"

Tex, well said.

The US government is literally driving people to go to other places to do business - even some small business owners like me. I came here because I couldn't run a small business easily (although my company is still US-based), the taxes were killing me and everyone else I was trying to hire. More and more regulations, taxes, etc.

After I left, the government decided to put a bureaucratic monstrosity, ill-planned, ill-funded and ill-conceived (as far as resolving the problems it was supposed to fix) because the politicians feel like it's important to do something in order to ensure the people see them as the saviors of the country instead of actually doing something productive that would really, really help things. If they really wanted to do something, they could have visited the whole health-care thing, together, and figured out what was the best way forward instead of one party deciding everything. In this case, in Nancy Pelosi's words: "You go through the gate. If the gate’s closed, you go over the fence. If the fence is too high, we’ll pole vault in. If that doesn’t work, we’ll parachute in. But we’re going to get health care reform passed for the American people." That's not "democracy", that's forcing one group's will over the others.

What cracks me up is that because the people who follow a party think it's right to do something, the other party doesn't get any say if the other party is weak enough. That's politics in the US now, very little cooperation and it's all about getting as much for one's own party (and therefore garnering votes and more power), not doing what's best for the country as a whole.

Washington and Jefferson and Franklin and those of their ilk, were indeed libertarians. They called themselves Liberals! Imagine that, how the terms got so changed around (and it was on purpose, happened around the end of the 1800s that the "federalists" became "liberals"). They weren't for a strong government that would take care of the people, quite the opposite!. They wanted a much less powerful central government so that the individual states could have the freedom to experiment with what worked best for their population and not adversely affect others. But people like Alexander Hamilton, who was basically a Royalist (though not a Loyalist - he wanted a monarchy under the guise of a powerful President, just not England's king or queen), overrode that idea and Washington et al had to compromise to get anything of value created (hence a stronger Constitution rather than a looser Articles of Confederation). Hamilton began almost immediately with his desire to have a central bank, for example, that Andrew Jackson had to squelch in his years. The US' experiment with personal liberties overriding that of the individual State was ruined pretty early in the game.

Today, when so many people hate "rich" people (who create jobs and are as important a lynchpin to creating wealth as the workers themselves) and think it's "unfair" that they have so much, the way to "solve" that problem is to redistribute money by force. The business environment in the "freest country in the world" (ha) has become so oppressive that people who want to make money are fleeing the country to do so. And that's "unpatriotic". People like me are seen as a nemesis now, we are bad because we don't want to just take it up the rear so people can get paid to have babies, to not work, to not grow crops, etc.

Kind of sounds a whole lot like the country I currently live in, to me; the US is just better organized and more serious about things. I see the US becoming less and less taken seriously around the world, more and more vulnerable to its debt, and one day the US will become the biggest sovereign defaulter in history and the results will make Argentina's woes look like a walk in the park.

In the meantime, I'm unpatriotic and the bane of people who think they know best how to make everyone happy.

I still maintain that the US should break up into something like 10-15 different countries and let each one figure out what is best for its own population the way those more homogenous populations see fit. I guarantee that what's best for New York or California isn't best for Texas, and so on down the line. I doubt there would be a Libertarian country among them if the breakup ever occurred, but at least there would be more competition and the possibility of things changing in individual places, a lot more now than a huge monolithic government that wants to place everyone in the same peg, round, square or what have you.

Well, I hijacked my own thread, but the truth is that talking about Argentina's economic woes is talking about many government's (and therefore their people's) woes as well.
 
I am not a full on libertarian but do identify with many of the ideals that elqueso just pointed out (and also libertarians). Most libertarians or who think like Elqueso are small business owners. They think a lot about their 3 or 4 workers and how they can continue to keep those three or four workers employed. When the government starts imposing a lot of taxes, it makes it very difficult to have many employees at a small business. Keep in mind that most businesses both in Argentina and the US are small businesses.

I thought this was pretty implausible so checked. Not true I'm afraid. From the latest census data that I can find, less than half of all businesses in the USA have 4 or less employees, and only 6 million of 120 million employees work in them. Just to put it in perspective.

http://www.census.go...n/smallbus.html
 
Today, when so many people hate "rich" people (who create jobs and are as important a lynchpin to creating wealth as the workers themselves) and think it's "unfair" that they have so much, the way to "solve" that problem is to redistribute money by force. The business environment in the "freest country in the world" (ha) has become so oppressive that people who want to make money are fleeing the country to do so. And that's "unpatriotic". People like me are seen as a nemesis now, we are bad because we don't want to just take it up the rear so people can get paid to have babies, to not work, to not grow crops, etc.

What amazes me and coming from an analysis back ground per your posts I am sure you will understand. If you look around in any of these countries or even the world with an analytical mind there are opportunities everywhere to make wealth and get rich. We just completed a software app in a niche B2B market that solved a huge problem but it gets better because the app is HTML5 and replaces what once required very a expensive desktop software with a pay per use model. It just went viral. Fallowed the launch with the small business consumables for the application through strategic alliances. Double whammy. Software was fairly easy to develop less than 18 man months. Pay dirt.

But even beyond my own work I just see HUGE opportunity everywhere I look. I have to keep myself focused or I tend to over extend playing with to many projects and businesses. But then again by nature I tinker with all sort of things and I like to learn the hard way. Which involves allot of trial and error and frustration.

I don’t think people realize that the mess of ignorance we live in even here in South America is just a HUGE opportunity to fix things that don’t work and make a profit on that. So they just grumble and pass the days watching series on the tele and partying and this and that. And they never really get beyond a menial work position. And of course it’s the government or their boss or someone or something else that is at fault for their lack. At this time blaming the rich is trending. Which getting rich in my experience very rarely involves anything short of hard work.

What is interesting, having been on both sides of the fence, the employee side and owner employer side. I have come to believe that having employees is worse. There is nothing like showing up in the office unexpectedly and watching people that are paid good wages start shuffling around putting their cell phones away and trying to shut down YouTube as fast as they can. Thinking you the boss are so stupid you did not even notice it. But it gets even more entertaining for me when these same employees think they are so special and deserve so much more. They think they are the company and what makes the money. ROFLOL LOL Well anyway, some of us know better but we just happen to be the trending excuse for loser’s at this time.
 
In my considered opinion, we who are in the tech business, particularly the "soft" side of it, are particularly blessed with opportunities. For me, it was sheer luck, being in the business - I just love it, and I'm very fortunate to work at something that I love to do. I couldn't believe it when I got my first job as a developer - "you mean someone's going to pay me for this?" was my first reaction and it lasted quite a while. It has allowed me to work just about anywhere I can afford to live and can find a way to stay there.

I work damned hard for it, too, always have. My first job developing (real one, not just writing AutoLISP for AutoCAD, which was one of my "hobbies" while I was a draftsman for a big engineering firm in the 80s) came about through somewhat of a fluke mixed with determination and sweat. I got laid off from my drafting job and decided a change of scenery was in the cards. But the only thing I could find was a temp job for an offshore drilling company, turning their hard-copy manuals and procedures into electronic MS Help files with an indexing/searching application I wrote. What a boring, drudgery of a job. It was all I could do to stay awake half the time. But while I was there, I started talking to some of the people (I had a little interior office in the middle of the Legal department) and struck up conversations with the VP of Purchasing when he'd come to talk to the legal staff. I found out that they had horrible problems with passing around material requisitions by paper for approval because people around the world didn't have a good means to log into the mainframe. In my spare time, I wrote an application that stored the data and signatures in a database on the server, importing from the mainframe and updating it afterwards, and would generate data files to send to people via email. The user in Singapore, or Malaysia, or Scotland, or wherever, clicked on the attachment, approved the MR with their local version of the software, sent it on to the next approver automatically as part of the approval process, and it ended up back at headquarters with all the necessary information to create a purchase order in days instead of the usual month or more. This was in the early 90s when ccMail was really big. Took me a bit over a month burning the midnight oil. I surprised the VP one day with a preview of what I'd written and he went batshit for it. A couple of weeks after the Purchasing department put it into use, I got an invite to go see the IT Manager. I thought he was going to be pissed. Turns out he offered me a job writing software and I ended up managing software development (with management of the company's new electronic documentation rolled in) after having built up the development sub department, which hadn't existed previously.

I'm a pretty smart guy, but I'm not much smarter than the average I think. I make my own breaks, which is a big difference between me and the vast majority of people I've known in my life. A lot of people don't have the will or desire. A lot of people are afraid to not work the 9-5 routine when it's called for, for various reasons. Sometimes because of family - but while I was drafting and then at the drilling company, I was already married with one kid, and then two, and then three. Sometimes I was really busy and sometimes not, but my family never starved and we always had a decent roof over our heads.

But even within the 9-5 routine, there are plenty of opportunities that many people don't take. Admittedly, I haven't lived in the States for 8 years and I haven't had a job at a desk (and that only for a year) or looked for a job in the States since 2005. I have no doubt things are harder, but I can't help but think that there are plenty of opportunities still available for those who don't mind getting their hands dirty for low pay to get in the door, and then work their asses off to make an impression and find something rewarding. You never know where you're going to find it. Sometimes you have to give up on what you do or were trained to do and do something else. I studied CS in school, got tired of punch cards and fortran, studied Latiin and and then English Lit and ended up getting a job driving a truck as an errand boy for a precast concrete plant, where I advanced to ditch digger, then foreman, then punch list manager, then managing erecting buildings. Then a draftsman took me under his wing and taught me how to design - by hand. And then I learned AutoCAD and brought modern design tools to a good-ol'-boy construction company. I actually designed and erected 5 buildings on the old Compaq campus in Houston - one of my prouder achievments, although the South Shore Harbor Yacht Club sales building and the hotel next door in South Houston were much better looking :)

And now look at me. A total of three career changes and still going strong. I've been up and I've been down, declared bankruptcy (the good one - paid back every cent I owed, didn't throw out anything), gotten half-rich and gone bust.

But that's me, established in "easier times". I don't really remember having easy times, it was a struggle every step of the way to get ahead. And to me, those who are not that worried about getting ahead, but would like steady work at decent salaries, and plenty of it - talk to their government and get them to ease the restrictions and the taxes on those of us who want to innovate and "live dangerously" and we'll provide the wealth :) Actually, I would love it if everybody had less restrictions and paid less taxes, not just us entrepreneurs nor rich people.

And yeah, there are a multitude of opportunities in Latin America as far as making money and fixing things. I'd choose carefully where I did it and what I did, though - need and red tape and corruption don't necessarily make good partners, at least for the small guy. I came here for opportunities and found a very narrow niche, but it's very difficult to get bigger when relying on local labor and the laws and attitudes that go with it, here in Buenos Aires. Paraguay, in my opinion, is a very interesting place to look to. Hard-working, better labor laws than much of what I know of South America (well, here, Paraguay, Venzuela [though it's been awhile, before Chavez] and Brasil), lower cost of living, lower overhead, much, much lower taxes, an economy that has been steadily growing but is still small and easy to get into, and so on.

I agree with you about employees, particularly here. I have only two guys working for me now, ex-Argentinos (well, obviously they're still citizens, but they were happy to leave and can't believe I've stayed!) living in Scotland, helping me on a project to create a web application to handle import/export/tariff information for international shipments - an application we hope to "go viral" as well by offering it to the masses (we already sell a "serious" version to a couple of big Fortune 100 companies for monthly licensing fees) at a cheap monthly subscription rate.

But I'm done hiring people here, and probably anywhere, for awhile, if ever again. Too big a pain in the rear.

Well, no one said life was easy, but you can sure make it fun!
 
It is too funny really when I listen to all the complaining, excuses and blaming. I have one friend I still work with in Argentina he is about 30 years old and is doing very well. He is just a go getter has 2 businesses he is working on plus his job.

On the weekends or for events he has a mobile bar with lights and DJ etc., he screen prints t-shirts and has a graphic design company. He has a new car and a nice place to live NOT with his parents and money for just about whatever he wants. And he actualy thinks most of his Argentinian compatriots are completely lazy idiots. To which I reply, that is a good thing as far you are concerned because not matter how lazy or ignorant they are, they will always need t-shirts and want to have parties.

Then there is my wife’s brother a successful Doctor from a poor family. His own father did not even get an education but his father worked all this life and set a good example, which I do honor. But he, my wife’s brother, studied hard at FREE educational institutions. Yes that is right he got a medical doctorate degree FREE of charge, well not entirely free because he had to WORK for it. Now he is in mid 40s has a beautiful house in the center of the city, two new cars, 2 excellent well educated kids in their teens etc. Just one generation and the family has gone from poor farm hands too a doctor living in best part of the city with well educated children and his life in order.

So now when I hear the socialist rehtoric, the grumbling and the we don’t have what we need, and it’s not fair, and the rich are to blame or it’s the government.. Dribbling out of the mouths of losers. I quietly think about the two stories I just outlined above and marvel at the ignorance.
 
I'm sorry? What isn't true? I am confused by your post.

The part of your post that I quoted that said "They think a lot about their 3 or 4 workers........Keep in mind that most businesses both in Argentina and the US are small businesses."

I pointed out that this is not true, in terms of number of employees and number of businesses, at least for the USA. As for Argentina, we all know how unreliable government statistics are here, so I didn't bother searching for the data.
 
I'll let Tex talk for himself, but I suspect he was mixing two different topics.

Small businesses have a varying number of employees. I've had as many as 7, my ex-partner had as many as 20. For a brief time in 2005 I worked for a software company started by a doctor who had 35 employees.

I just did a quick search and found a PDF from the SBA, from 2012.

"In 2010 there were 27.9 million small businesses, and 18,500 firms with 500 employees or more. Over three-quarters of small businesses were non-employers; this number has trended up over the past decade, while employers have been relatively flat"

The Office of Advocacy defines a small business as less than 500 employees.

Of course, the majority of small businesses are not 3-4 employees: I suspect Tex was thinking of one group of people, and I couldn't find (in a quick search) the number of small businesses who employee between 2-4 people. I would accept 6 million as a probable number. But I was such an employer once, and I can tell you that I did indeed worry about my employees, what they thought of me and what pay I offered them, what I wouldn't be able to offer them to keep them working for me, etc. The more pressure the government put on me, the more difficult it was. Sometimes it seemed like I was caught between paying through the nose for an accountant to make sure I dotted all my "i"s and and crossed all my "t"s or risk going to jail because I wasn't complying with everything from local regulations related to my place of work (even just having a worker's comp notice posted), paying worker's comp, paying unemployment insurance, paying business taxes, paying employee contribution taxes, etc, etc ad infinitum. And that was in the early 2000s. It's probably gotten much worse, particularly with ACA, though I don't know any more.

But notice that last sentence in the quoted paragraph above. Small businesses employ 57.3 percent of the private workforce, which is a serious amount of people. Given that the number of small businesses who actually employ people (i.e., not just a single person who incorporated for whatever advantage) is falling over the last decade and that should be quite troubling.

If Bush was responsible for the recession ("crisis") of 2008, Obama is responsible for continuing the trend. Most of the last decade has been under his watch and the small business numbers are still going down.

To me, it says that a good work horse for employment is slowly being edged out by economic and bureaucratic conditions in the US. As the government tries to consolidate more and more power, they push out the smaller guy (who, BTW, are harder to control and maintain specific data on, collect taxes, etc, because they are so diffuse).

Governments do not ever create jobs that contribute to the economy and well-being of its populace. The best they can do is set up conditions that allow entrepreneurs to thrive (and therefore feel like they can employ others and truly spread the wealth in a much more fair fashion), the worst is kill that particular class of worker.
 
And BTW - from what I see with my own eyes here, I wouldn't doubt if the percentage of small businesses here are much higher than the US. Unfortunately, many of these are often an island. Owned and operated by a family, close down when they go on vacation because they don't trust "outsiders" to run their business in their absence, sometimes employing someone outside the family or not. Young kids can't get jobs (I'm talking 16+) for the summer, or part-time at night because the adults, who really, really need the jobs, take all of the low paying jobs that would be available, as well as the trust issue on top of that.

And gee, what's happening in the States? I worked as a cashier in Houston at Target when I was 16. I worked for a summer with a friend of mine whose father had a small construction business (about 100 people - a small business) to buy my first car. Friend of mine was a waiter at Bennigan's at the age of 18 and used to make more in tips in one night than I did in a week of working at Target.

Where are all those summer jobs for kids nowadays? Taken up by workers who are crowded into taking those jobs. Sound very similar to here in Argentina...

Smaller government that can't screw things up, folks. Government has very few solutions that the people themselves can't handle much better.
 
El Queso

My friend.I really value your posts...

But may i request you to write them shorter..so that I can grasp the gist...

A food item's request to another food item!
 
Back
Top