Is it all down to lack of respect???

Guillo said:
I don't need to increase my credibility. The facts are on my side.
I'm referring people complaining about employees starting a lawsuit against them as if it was a character flaw on the whole country, and then showing without any doubt a total disconnect with local law and customs.
As Citygirl carefully pointed out: " It's protection for all parties."

Guillo said:
No wonder you ended up with a lawsuit from a worker if you think you don't need to follow the local laws.
So you know that Citygirl broke the law?

Could we see some evidence, please?
 
John.St said:
As Citygirl carefully pointed out: " It's protection for all parties."
Even if its peace of mind for you, it means absolutely nothing in case of conflict and are not usually drawn.

So you know that Citygirl broke the law?
Could we see some evidence, please?
I didn't say she did. I did say she doesn't know much about it if she expect a contract to trump local "en relacion de dependencia" model.

How hard is to understand? You can't sign away your right to quit whenever you want, like many other rights. You can sign a NDA, but you can't sign away the right to work at whatever you want (or can, anyhow). I don't think that non-compete clauses are enforceable here, but I might be wrong at this, IANAL.
 
Guillo said:
Again, there is no need for a contract down here. I've been working in this country for 20 years and never had one.
The letter you made your employees sign is totally worthless. You can't sidestep work law. What you think it's your sole agreement, won't withstand any analysis if it doesn't cover 100% of the rights given by law. Those rights can't be signed away in a contract. Same with your obligations as employer. No way to avoid it.
No wonder you ended up with a lawsuit from a worker if you think you don't need to follow the local laws.


I'm at a bit of loss how you made a leap from me having my employees sign an employment agreement (at the advice of a local legal expert in Argentine employment law) to stating that I am ignoring local laws:confused: I stated multiple times that the letters function as an outline of job title, salary, start date, responsibilities, etc. At no time did I say that the letter asked them to cede their legal rights. Nor did I say it would supercede national law. A work contract can't supercede employment law. That's so obvious, I didn't realize it was necessary to spell it out. Stating that this agreement is the sole contract (as we do) is to prevent an employee from claiming he or she was promised x, y or z and didn't get it.

Again, the reason I posted in the first place is that I was simply pointing out that whomever said employees don't sign something in Argentina, was incorrect. Some companies don't bother, many do. And so yes, regular, direct employees can sign employment agreements.

PS - Thanks for worrying about my lawsuit. In point of fact, we have a very, very good chance that it is going to be dismissed thanks to all those pesky things we had the employee sign..... ;)
 
Oh & while I'm thinking about it - a conocida of mine just received a carta documento from a lawyer. She is being sued by someone who is claiming he worked for her, he has a witness that can vouch for it and she paid him in negro for the last 3 years to work on her property and that's why there is no record of it.

She has no employees and has no idea who this person is. Yet now she has to go through the process of proving it. Pretty scary huh?
 
perry said:
From my experience this situation does not sound right and especially in light of the years that she has been working as a teacher .
There are many commendable woman in Buenos Aires who are amongst the most bright and dedicated workers in the world. For this reason alone I bet there is more behind this story that meets the eye.


I love a good conspiracy myself Perry..if I get more scoop I'll be sure to let you know..for now let's presume she was a govt. agent checking on school standards, about to be ousted. It's a prettier picture than pure opportunism which I have to agree is not a dubious quality on which only some Argentineans have dibs. The point of the thread was to discuss general lack of individual respect for others - it sure has been entertaining on many other different tangents. This site is a hoot. We expacts are like a dysfunctional family - let's discuss??
 
Just to clarify my point, cos It might have sounded a little bit ambiguous: I said that it was not true that in Argentina employees don't sign contracts, because I was an employee and I signed a contract, and so did most of the people I know that worked at major companies.
The main purpose of those contracts are to stipulate certain conditions so the employer can be sure the employee understood those conditions and agreed, so there shouldn't be any problem of misunderstanding (something that could normally happen if the agreement is just spoken word) and those contracts are valid proof of an agreement unless they violate the law. Let's say I sign a contract that says I will not have vacations, it will be worth absolutely nothing in case of a potential lawsuit.

Sooo... is it an obligation to sign a contract to be legally employed? The answer is NO. Guillo is totally right in her arguments that an employee here has a huge number of ways to prove that he worked for a company.
When you work, you are registered in the ANSES, you get health insurance, you sign a receipt everytime you get paid and keep a copy of that receipt, you pay income taxes, etc.

If in some way you happen to find out that you have been employed by John's "Evil Capitalist Employer" (and he is right! there's plenty of those in this country), well.. let's say that if you are the employee you have 90% of the lawsuit already won. You'll just need a good number of witnesses, make a declaration stating duties you had to do, prove knowledge of internal aspects of the company that only someone who actually worked there would have known, and if you ever happen to have a copy of a receipt of your salary (I don't think the evil capitalist would be that stupid, but it can happen!) then you can sit comfortably in your chair cos you have the lawsuit in your pocket.
Aaaandd the amount of money the evil capitalist will have to pay won't be small at all, so he will think it twice before trying to take advantage of an employee in the "land of Perón". (No I am not "Peronista", thank God i'm waaay far from being one).

Now my opinion: Does this system work? Yes, it does. Is it good for employers and employees? Well, my family owns a mid-sized business, with around 100 employees, but I've also been an employee in other companies, so I can have both points of view.

It's fairly good for an employee because the law is absolutely impartial and tends to favor them in 90% of the cases. But... in the long term, and thinking macroeconomically, it's not such a good law. Why? Because an employer will think 1.000.000.000.000 times before hiring a new employee. My dad always said "hiring a new employee is hiring a new problem"... why?? because employees take advantage of the benefits of the law in a big number of unethical ways. i.e.: an employee wants to quit.... so deliberately does a terrible job, shows attitude to his boss, causes trouble, etc etc. And it is almost impossible to fire him putting that as a cause of termination. In other words, he will get fired "without a cause" and thus will be paid a considerable ammount of money for compensation. So in this country it's better to do your job terribly for a couple of months and cause some trouble, than simply quitting.

The result of this law?? The terrible attention customers get, lots of things not working properly, businesses closing... and also unemployement, cos employers are reluctant to hire new employees unless it's extremely necessary.
 
citygirl said:
Stating that this agreement is the sole contract (as we do) is to prevent an employee from claiming he or she was promised x, y or z and didn't get it.

They can claim whatever they want no matter what the contract says because that contract has NO LEGAL VALUE. For legal matters it may as well be a page from your journal.
 
John.St said:
What does the law say about contracts and not forbidding trabaja voluntario?

"Ley de contrato de trabajo" Ley Nº 20744
http://biblioteca.afip.gov.ar/gateway.dll/Normas/Leyes/tor_c_020744_1976_05_13.xml

"Constituye trabajo, a los fines de esta ley, toda actividad lícita que se preste en favor de quien tiene la facultad de dirigirla, mediante una remuneración"
REMUNERACIÓN. Do you know what that is?

And about contracts.

ARTICULO 1° - El contrato de trabajo y la relación de trabajo se rigen:

a) Por esta ley.

b) Por las leyes y estatutos profesionales.

c) Por las convenciones colectivas o laudos con fuerza de tales.

d) Por la voluntad de las partes.

e) Por los usos y costumbres.
 
Volunteering is not forbidden if you are willing to work for an NPO or in special situations such as doing a favor to a relative, friend, etc for a short term period. Theres a law: Ley 25.855 that sort of regulates volunteering, however in my opinion, it has some flaws.
http://www.sde.gov.ar/educacion/SpepNuevo/NORMATIVAS/leyvolu.htm

In what refers to private companies, until 2009 it was possible to "hire" student as a volunteer for an internship program. Students would work at a company for a short-term period in order to gain experience and knowledge (and probably get a job there in the future), and the company didn't have the obligation to pay them a salary.
Lots of evil capitalists took advantage of this, and because of that, since 2009 we have a Law that regulates this methodology, so now companies have the obligation to pay students a "stimulation salary".
However, this does not generate an employment relationship between the company and the student, and the law requires both parties to sign a contract in this case.
 
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