Jobs?

[igor]

Igor is correct in saying that by living in a few upscale neighbourhoods you can avoid a lot of the problems of poverty in Argentina. What he was wrong in suggesting was that the full restaurants, theatres etc. represent the reality for most Argentines.

Nope. You said that all argentines (whom you refer as "people") are striving to survive and can not afford anything. I gave you example of some people who seem to do pretty well. It is a formal logic approach. I never said that they are a majority. Which group you associate yourself with and feel stronger about is a completely different thing.

I will not be able to find out personally how good are social services in USA until I am how old 70? 75? If the social security system will still be in place by that time. But I can say for sure that you can buy comparable quality medical insurance here for 1/5th of USA price. And it is existence of public health system by itself without any difference how good or bad it is drives the price of paid insurance down.

You may believe that it is your mission to bring the TRUTH (with all capital letters) to the naive people from the homeland of the Mickey Mouse, and so be it. Just what is important for people who are coming here is how good this place can be for them, and not in a general sense. Your analysis may be relevant to a bunch of economics major students on a latin america field trip though.

 

[sapphos]

Please let me be the first to say that I am not a disillusioned expat. My original intent was to answer Mr. Wolf's question about what we "westerners" find so enchanting about Argentina. I do not suppose to say that it is without MAJOR issues. Anyone who thinks that is sorely confused about my comment.

However, what I do find interesting is that people seem to fall for a country based merely upon other people's comments and upon websites such as this...WITHOUT EVER HAVING EVEN VISITED...let alone gone as a tourist and scratched below the surface.

We all know that we can fall in love with a place when we're on vacation because we see only the fairy tale side but when you actually live there it is a different story and I will agree that living on an expat executive salary is hardly to be compared either.

Even Mr. Wolf agreed that once he'd actually visited the country he changed his mind...but it took actually visiting and not just reading a website and seeing pretty pictures.

We have friends in Argentina and we've spent extensive time there and again, once again, I will state that I never said it was perfect...far from it...but we still love it, and there are many more like us or there would never be websites such as this and a large pop. of expats from not just the U.S.

 

[noosa]

These posts have really taken a turn, but I'm very interested in some of the insightful information that people have provided. Though I worked as an English teacher and editor in Buenos Aires for a pretty paltry salary during my time there, by no means do I feel like I have a good idea of what life is like for the average porteno. Through my work in companies and the places where I went out at night I think I mostly met people who were financially comfortable. It does seem like I met an "abnormal" number of warm and thoughtful people during my time there. I had enlightening conversations with taxi drivers and also never picked up on any hostility directed towards me. As an American traveler these days, this was actually unusual.

One aspect of middle and upper class life that I found a bit mystifying was the popularity of "countries" outside the city in places like Pilar. I'm 25 and many of the people I met of similar age would often spend their weekends at their parents' homes in these gated communities complete with pools, tennis courts and sometimes even golf courses. It struck me as incredibly odd that young people would want to go out to these retirement-seeming places with such frequency. I never actually went to one but have been told that I must come out for asados when I'm back in Buenos Aires for a few months in the spring. It should be interesting. Does anyone know more about this or have idea of why this has become so desirable for those who can afford it?

One subtle thing I picked up on is a certain degree of wistfulness and escapism that seems more prevalent among the people I met in BA than elsewhere. Escaping to manufactured, idyllic neighborhoods is certainly a release from the chaos and sometimes harshness of BA.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Syngirl:

Thanks for the information and it's heartening to see the Argentines engaged in import substitution. As for quality, well, it comes with time. As for window shopping: guilty as charged; I've been looking in the shop windows of Recoleta and Florida Avenue, where the prices make even me gasp (we seldom pay full retail price in the US, usually finding cheaper deals via internet searches).

By rights, a country like Argentina should be affluent. Why I don't understand why it isn't reflects my own lack of intimacy with Argentine history and culture, which I'm attempting to rectify.

I note, incidentally, that lots of Argentines study law, economics, philosophy, and psychology at university, and relatively few go for the hard sciences and engineering (a state of affairs replicated in the US, but the US can afford to buy its engineering and scientific talent ready-made). I don't know whether this is a correct observation: someone among the cognoscenti will have to enlighten me.

 

[bigbadwolf]

IMr Wolf is absolutely right in saying that you can not compare resource rich Argentina with its small population with countries like India and Brazil that have huge populations (though a comparison to India is not all that favourable. India has a rapidly expanding middle class. Salaries for many professionals are actually higher than those of comparable Argentine professionals. Argentina would be lucky to be expanding its middle class as India is. The opposite is happening here).

Right you are. Though of course India has its own very acute problems, and by "Indian middle class" we tend to mean something quite modest. But still, India is playing the only game in town and is trying to elbow itself in by means of the one resource it has in abundance: manpower, and especially skilled manpower. I may regard the global game askance, and not agree with its many casualties, but this game of technology and global markets has to be played by every serious country. I'm open to correction but the feeling I get is that the political elite here in Argentina isn't familiar with the rules of the game. Perhaps part of the backwardness stems from this.

Much of what I write is conjecture: a few weeks is simply not enough, and I'm further handicapped by not knowing the language.

 

Igor is mistaken when he says that I commented that ALL Argentines are strguggling. I did not say that. What I said was that most people in Argentina earn low salaries, that families live together and pool resources. Barrio Norte and Zona Norte, affluyent enclaves, are atypical. It is true, though, that most families around Argentina are struggling.

This is a useful website for a number of reasons but not just because it helps expats and potential ebsats understand what Argentina can "do" for them but because it is a place where ideas can be exchanged. I don't think it is fair to assume that people who come here have no intertest in the reality of life outside the expat bubble. It is not my goal to spread the "TRUTH", just to express ideas and communicate. What's wrong with that?

With reference to Mr Wolf's comments concerning the political establishment and their lack of understanding of globalisation: you are quite right. Chile has a very firm grip on the global economy. Because they are perceived as business friendly and because they guarantee investors judicial security (unlike Argentina) they contiunue their long term stable growth. Argentina has lacked any sort of serious plan like Chile's and is far worse under the current Kirchner government that takes pride in its openly hostile attitude toward business. The sad fact is that the Argentine political "class" do not want globalisation. They insist on remaining in a 1960's time warp believing that the whole world must change to suit Argentina. It has always been the Peronist way to run a highly authoritarian statist system. Globalisation requires competition and that is something anathema to Peronism. It is also something the political leaders do not want -- an efficient and competitive system would require a more transparent government. That in turn would mean considerably less corruption. The local politicians like things as they are. This way they can hand out little favors ($150 pesos to piqueteros, for example) in return for votes.

India's middle class - are you sure it is so modest? As I said, many professional salaries are better in India than they are in Argentina. Are you sure that current middle class income levels here are better than those of the Indian middle class? What is clear is that India has a huge pool of highly trained people who speak English as a native language. They are also advancing because their leaders have embraced globalisation. Read Freidman (NY Times) on the subject of Indian globalisation to get an idea of how young upwardly mobile Indians are enthusiastic about the opportuniies globalisation has brought them. Here in Argentina globalisation remains a dirty word. Like it or not, the world is changing and Argentina must adapt unless it wants to be left behind.

Engineers - I think there are quite a few here, though there are more psychologists. Argentines, as the writer said, go in for medicine, psychology and other traditional professions. It seems to be part of the middle class European attitude here to pursue one of the traditional professions as a way of social advancement. You will not find a lot of students doing doctorates in literature as you will in the US or Europe. These programs are almost non existent here. They are seen as dead ends in a country that can not support so many doctors and lawyers. Academics here are not taken seriously. The universities are run by part timers and secndary teachers are paid close to starvation wages.

Countries / barrios cerados -- This is an interesting phenomenon that has boomed over the last decade. It has partly to do with the rise in crime in BA. These are mostly inhabited by upper middle class professional people who want an American style suburban lifestyle with all the amenities: free standing house with garden, place to park one or two cars, swimming pool, a place for children to play and lots of security. Private schools and other services have actually sprung up around these gated communities to accommodate the growing number of families who inhabit them. There are some wealthy people who use their homes in gated communities only for occasional weekends. What strikes me as interesting is the custom of renting a house in a gated community for a month's summer holiday.

Social Security: I was waiting for someone to tell me that the system is going to disappear. I think that very unlikely. Do people honstly think the US, with all its great wealth and power, is going to eliminate or seriously cut back its social security system, especially with a growing block of retired voters? Of course there is a funding issue that has to be addressed for the long term -- and it will be. In the worst case scenario, the US government would have to reduce spending in other areas to maintain its social security system. Not to do so would be political suicide for Congress. I think my point was pretty clear: no one in the US gets a $50 a month pension (many Americans actually have TWO pensions. One is state sponsored social security; the other is a private company sponsored pension or 401-K plan).

 

[bigbadwolf]

This is a useful website for a number of reasons but not just because it helps expats and potential ebsats understand what Argentina can "do" for them but because it is a place where ideas can be exchanged. I don't think it is fair to assume that people who come here have no intertest in the reality of life outside the expat bubble. It is not my goal to spread the "TRUTH", just to express ideas and communicate. What's wrong with that?

Nothing's wrong with that; in fact I've learnt more from your posts than I have from any other single source. Ideas and (informed) opinions need to be exchanged and criticised. Furthermore, expats and visitors are often in a better position to analyse and criticise a particular country because of their broader perspective: they can make comparisons, and they may have a better idea of what's happening globally.

It's not instructive if every visitor and expat gushes and waxes enthusiastic about a country that -- though undoubtedly possessing many charms and pleasures -- has its share of systemic problems.

India's middle class - are you sure it is so modest? As I said, many professional salaries are better in India than they are in Argentina. Are you sure that current middle class income levels here are better than those of the Indian middle class? What is clear is that India has a huge pool of highly trained people who speak English as a native language. They are also advancing because their leaders have embraced globalisation. Read Freidman (NY Times) on the subject of Indian globalisation to get an idea of how young upwardly mobile Indians are enthusiastic about the opportuniies globalisation has brought them. Here in Argentina globalisation remains a dirty word. Like it or not, the world is changing and Argentina must adapt unless it wants to be left behind.

There is an Indian "middle class" numbering over 100 million (approx.). But their aspirations and standard of living are modest by American and west European standards. They have university degrees and/or professional qualifications (though their universities can't compare to their Western counterparts). The problem is one of numbers. For all practical purposes, the amount of labor available in India, both skilled and unskilled -- as in China -- is infinite. Two or three more "Cyberabads" aren't going to change this; they're but a drop in the ocean. Thus, for example, when Indian Railways advertised for 20,000 unskilled laborers a couple of years back, they attracted 880,000 applications; many of the applicants had advanced degrees (MS, MBA, even PH.D.s, and many engineers).

With regard to salary levels, you're right with regard to (some) computer programmers perhaps. If 3000 pesos is a good executive salary here, it's a good salary in India as well.

The largest Indian companies are beginning to make a splash in world markets; the richest Indian -- Mittal -- is also the world's biggest steel tycoon. We all know about Indian software (though quality isn't good). Indian manufacturing isn't that great either, though they may establish a presence in low-end automobiles (for example). Much of the recent growth in India --as in China -- has been driven by Western multinationals, with their insatiable appetite for cutting labor costs. It remains an open question for me as to how tied the modern parts of the Indian economy are to the needs and wishes of Western multinationals.

I'm acquainted with the writings of Thomas Friedman: I read his book, "The Lexus and the Olive Tree." He's a tireless cheerleader of globalisation and unfettered capitalism. He's a journalist, and his analysis -- if indeed it can be called such -- I find superficial and unconvincing. His observations are also superficial - those of a visitor staying at a luxury hotel, and willfully seeing only the positive things (a point of view both you and I have been scathingly critical of). I'm sceptical about globalisation and unfettered capitalism but, as I said in my previous post, it's presently the only game in town.

 

I am not sure just how modest standards are for the Indian middle class compared with standards in Argentina. The gap may be narrowing. The important point is that India's middle class is growing; Argentina's is shrinking.

There is not much sense in debating the ethics of globalisation as it is here to stay. Argentine politicians and "intellectuals" can decry the modern world but facts are facts. The question is: how can Argentina make the best of the world as it is, not as they would like it to be. Chile is doing a much better job. The Chilean government is "socialist" with a strong focus on human rights yet they combine this with an investment friendly environment. The country is improving.

You may be right about Friedman however I believe his comments regarding the benefits of globalisation at least as far as a sector of the Indian society is concerned. Argentina, with its exceedingly devalued wages, is now competitive in terms of wages but there is absolutely no effort being made by the government to improve English language skills that are needed to participate successfully in globalisation.

As for expat gushing about the virtues of Argentina...What annoys me is that they apply different standards to those that they apply to their own countries, especially the US. What is standard practice is often unthinkable in countries like the US or UK. I wonder, for example, if many readers of this column are aware of the common practice here of paying salaries very late or of paying a portion of the salary or not paying anything for months at a time? This often happens when employers have economic problems - though the same employers seem to find money for themselves. Again, expats by exposing these realities I am not condemning Argentina. I know all about its attractions but the hard life that most people live here is not one of the attractions.

 

[Harold]

My thinking for my own situation is to either maintain or increase my income from my practice, while reducing my costs of living. All the while looking for investment opportunities in South America. There has been some news lately concerning economic developments in Argentina. First Venezuela joining Mercosuer. Then there is talk of increasing the cost of exporting beef. Evidently to attempt to prevent a rise in the price of beef domestically. Though it is likely to only result in less beef being produced. Then there is the increase rate of price inflation in Argentina. Which is currently running at about 11% for the year I believe. One question, are there many instances of price or wage controls in Argentina? And also if the numbers are to be believed, the trade surplus has increased.
My thinking is puzzled. The Argentine government appears to be of two minds. It seeks greater economic integration at least regionally if not globally. But at the same time it is attempting to manage the Argentine economy ala Keynes or Keynes lite, via Chicago School of which Freidman is an adherent. The trouble is with the government working at these cross purposes, one or the other will eventually prevail, but only after severe economic dislocations. Keynesianims in principle can work only when the economic manager (normally the state) operates at the same level as the economy is integrated.. A managed national economy requires a national manager. A managed regional economy requires a regional manager. And of course a global economy requires a global manager. If a managed economy is what most people in Argentina want and Argentina is integrated into a regional or greater economy than for the economy to be managed effectively, the manager must be either regional, supraregional or global. The choice therefore is to have a truly free market or accept regional or global bureacratic government. That or cut Argentina off from international markets all together and be self sufficient or do without.
But as to the US the economic picture is not rosy either, particularly on the macro level. The dollar is in a long term decline. This past year's increases against other currencies is not based on the strengths of the US economy so much as the weaknesses of others; a priviledged reserve currency status; the use of dollars in purchasing oil; and certain tax incentives that come to an end in January. Then there has been the increase in the rate of inflation. The true rate is probably running about 7%. The core rate is mostly a manipulation to keep down cost of living adjustments in Social Security and government pension payees and to keep people from panicing. Then of course we must not forget the record trade and budget deficits. Also the levels of personal indebtedness has never been higher. People have never owned less than their homes as they do currently. Jobs in the economy have reoriented towards the distrution of goods instead of their production. For example there is a high level of retail employment. As many as one in seven jobs in many regions, California for instance, are directly connected with the construction, financing, and selling of homes. To summerise there are some severe distortions present in the US economy. The US economy as it is presently constituted is not stable. As far as politics go. By the accounts of many an incipient police state is beginning to form in the US. Politics here takes a different form of corruption than in Argentina. But it is probably every bit as distructive. Though to tell you the truth, it would be preferable to have the sort of corruption customary in Argentina should government become abusive. I would not want a conscientious secret police man after me. Harold

 

I don't think you will find Argentina very cooperative with a serious regional economic system. Mercosur has not worked well. The Argentine government is forever putting up objections to Brazilian imports, for example. Kirchner is not likely to take orders from Lula.

Price controls? Utility rates have been frozen since the devaluation. There is pressure on supermarkets at the moment. Kirchner has scapegoated the supermarkets while everyone else raises prices.

Who can deny that the federal government in the US has grown ever more powerful under a supposedly conservative Republican administration? However suggestions that a police state is growing seem exaggerated to me. Let's not forget that the war in Iraq, the Patriot Act etc. were authorized by Democrats as well as Republicans. Throughout American history the pendulum has tended to swing at times in favor of one branch of government. At the moment the Executive is enjoying unusual power but far from the power yielded by the President of Argentina who can issue decrees to circumvent Congress. There are practices in the US that could be considered unethical, though not illegal. The lobby system, for example, should be reformed. Still there is comparatively little overt corruption in the US and when it is uncovered someone gets in trouble. That does not happen here where politicians routinely steal with impunity.