Just one more crisis

[ghost]

I wouldn't say Argentina is the last place on earth I would try to start a business but it would be very far down the list. You really have to admire the locals who do and are successful in spite of all the roadblocks erected to prevent their success.

I do admire the successful business people here because they have taught me to examine everything at a level of detail that I would never even consider in my US operations. We are succesful by definition, however if I compare effort vs yield, my mind begins to reel and I get very pissed off thinking about having to spend 2 hours out of three just checking to make sure that my shoes aren't tied together. Fortunately I spend less and less time with the AR operation and my stomach is thanking me every day.

 

[SaraSara]

Well said, Citygirl.

But in practical terms, how would you go about improving all the things you see wrong? Entering politics? Where do you start? How do you change the mindset of people brought up for generations to see the government as their enemy, and distrust everyone but their own immediate families?

Most Argentines see the problems you pointed out, but they don't know how to go about fixing them. So, what would you suggest to improve things? What steps could we take to make sure schools are funded, and people educated?

Do you know that in Argentina all representatives are elected at large? The so-called Listas sabanas mean that a bunch of crooks represents a WHOLE PROVINCE, and are therefore unaccountable to voters. How do you change that? Specific suggestions would be very welcome - the locals complain but feel totally helpless and have no idea as to how to begin changing what's wrong.

Yet, when they do get together they can accomplish a lot. I live in San Isidro where there's active citizen participation and the intendente does an outstanding job. The local government is responsive, regulations are rational, most things can be done over the internet, phones are answered by the fourth ring, streets are clean and well lit, railroad underpasses are built, and a giant free hospital was recently completed, all done with local funds.

Another thing that works well is the ACA, the local equivalent of AAA. It has a good cartography department, great car insurance, and a road-trip desk manned by people familiar with the condition of every back road in Argentina. It has a fleet of trucks driven by trained mechanics, polite and very knowledgeable. They can replace a battery, change belts, do light mechanical work, and patch flat tires. The response time is amazing: I called for help from my farm in Uruguay, deep in the countryside on a dirt road, and in less than forty minutes a truck arrived with a mechanic to change my flat tire.

Well, those are examples of things that do work. Sorry for digressing - don't quite know how the post ended up talking about flat tires. Chalk it up to advancing senility...

 

[gouchobob]

Well said, Citygirl.

But in practical terms, how would you go about improving all the things you see wrong? Entering politics? Where do you start? How do you change the mindset of people brought up for generations to see the government as their enemy, and distrust everyone but their own immediate families?

Most Argentines see the problems you pointed out, but they don't know how to go about fixing them. So, what would you suggest to improve things? What steps could we take to make sure schools are funded, and people educated?

Do you know that in Argentina all representatives are elected at large? The so-called Listas sabanas mean that a bunch of crooks represents a WHOLE PROVINCE, and are therefore unaccountable to voters. How do you change that? Specific suggestions would be very welcome, Argentines can only complain, as they feel totally helpless. Yet, when they do get together they can accomplish a lot.

I live in San Isidro where there's active citizen participation and the intendente does an outstanding job. The local government is responsive, regulations are rational, most things can be done over the internet, phones are answered by the fourth ring, streets are clean and well lit, railroad underpasses are built, and a giant free hospital was recently completed, all done with local funds.

Another thing that works is the ACA, the local equivalent of AAA which puts its American counterpart to shame. Its trucks are manned by trained mechanics, polite and very knowledgeable. They can replace a battery, change belts, do light mechanical work, and patch flat tires. The response time is amazing: even in neighboring Uruguay, in my farm on a dirt road deep in the countryside, thirty minutes after I called AAA a mechanic arrived in a truck to change my flat tire.

Well, those are examples of things that do work. Sorry for digressing - don't quite know how the post ended up talking about flat tires. Chalk it up to advancing senility...

Actually you don't have to go very far for examples of countries with very similar problems where changes are working and making people's lives better just look at Chile or Brazil. What it would take to get the Argentina headed in that kind of direction would be a very different kind of leadership, something you can hope for but something I wouldn't expect until things get really bad and the people are completely fed-up and the ruling politicians are completely discredited. Don't know when this will happen, I believe it will one day.

 

[dennisr]

For someone like myself (Gringo), trying to understand "The Argentine Way" is difficult and frustrating, if not impossible. The one thing I try to remember is, Argentina’s economy is structured on Collectivism: Peronism. Like it, hate it, Peronism, it is what it is.

If you attend a basic business orientation for Argentina, the first thing they tell you, "Argentines avoid UNCERTAINITY at all costs. And to avoid uncertainty, it is a highly rule-oriented society."
From a handout for Argentina:

Uncertainty avoidance ranks highest which indicates a high concern for rules, regulations, controls and issues with career security – typically, a society that does not readily accept change and is risk adverse. Individualism ranks lowest which signifies a society of a more collectivist nature and strong relationships where everyone takes responsibility for fellow members of their group.

The high Uncertainty Avoidance Index (UAI) ranking of 86 indicates the society’s low level of tolerance for uncertainty. In an effort to minimize or reduce this level of uncertainty, strict rules, laws, policies, and regulations are adopted and implemented. The ultimate goal of this population is to control everything in order to eliminate or avoid the unexpected. As a result of this high Uncertainty Avoidance characteristic, the society does not readily accept change and is very risk adverse.

In many of the Latin American countries, including Argentina, the population is predominantly Catholic (see Religions Graph below). The combination of Catholicism and the cultural dimensions shown in the Hofstede Graph above, reinforce a philosophy predicated in the belief that there is an absolute ‘Truth". As Geert Hofstede explains about peoples with a high Uncertainty Avoidance Index, their attitude is, "There can only be one Truth and we have it."

Based on our studies and data, the large majority of predominantly Catholic countries (those with Uncertainty Avoidance as their highest ranking Dimension) have a low tolerance for ambiguity. This creates a highly rule-oriented society that institutes laws, rules, regulations, and controls in order to reduce the amount of uncertainty within the population.

 

[SaraSara]

I hear from friends and relatives who live in Brazil that conditions there are not that good: income inequality is worse than here, and crime in Sao Paulo and Rio much higher. This is just anecdotal evidence - does anyone have any figures? The economy is booming, however, so they are obviously doing something right.

I don't know anything about Chile except that much as they hated the Pinochet regime, it gave the country a steady government which encouraged investment. In Argentina it's a Russian roulette - rules change almost daily, and laws are ignored.

 

[gouchobob]

I hear from friends and relatives who live in Brazil that conditions there are not that good: income inequality is worse than here, and crime in Sao Paulo and Rio much higher. This is just anecdotal evidence - does anyone have any figures? The economy is booming, however, so they are obviously doing something right.

I don't know anything about Chile except that much as they hated the Pinochet regime, it gave the country a steady government which encouraged investment. In Argentina it's a Russian roulette - rules change almost daily, and laws are ignored.

Well sure Brazil still has a lot of problems including a bad crime problem but the economy is really doing very well for some time and its of course one of the BRIC countries. Brazil in many ways has profited from Argentina's decline. For example Brazil is now the worlds biggest beef exporter use to be Argentina. A lots been written on this. This is also benefiting Argentina as most of the car production is exported to Brazil.

Chile is another big success story over the last twenty years. I believe Chile's per capita GDP is now higher than Argentina's although the total size of the economy is still smaller. If you want to learn more read the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Chile

 

[perry]

Your anti Argentinian propaganda is showing itself to be more ridiculous by the day goucho . Does anyone here living in Argentina seriously believe that Brazil or Chile are better countries for expats?

Brazil is many times as dangerous for major crimes in San Paulo or Rio De Janeiro and its economy is not as strong as Argentinas . Gouchobob do you know that the growth rate in Argentina for the last 10 years has outstripped Brazils each and every year . They are currently growing at 7 percent per annum and while their living situation has improved in the last years they have lower wages in general . Argentina's minimum wage is by far the highest in latin America and the cost of living in Buenos Aires is 30 percent less than Rio and 50 percent less than San Paulo.

In regards to Chile there are very few people who wish to live there as it lacks all the vibrancy and charm of Argentina. The current government of Pinera is repressive with ties to the Pinochet government of the 1970s . Freedom of speech , gay rights, workers wages are way down the list across the border in Santiago De Chile.

Argentina with all its faults is a beacon of hope in the Southern Hemisphere and will continue to be so as shown by 90 percent of all expats choosing this as their home in South America.
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[SaraSara]

Well sure Brazil still has a lot of problems including a bad crime problem but the economy is really doing very well for some time and its of course one of the BRIC countries. Brazil in many ways has profited from Argentina's decline. For example Brazil is now the worlds biggest beef exporter use to be Argentina. A lots been written on this. This is also benefiting Argentina as most of the car production is exported to Brazil.

Chile is another big success story over the last twenty years. I believe Chile's per capita GDP is now higher than Argentina's although the total size of the economy is still smaller. If you want to learn more read the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Chile

Per capita figures are largely meaningless, as they are easily distorted by a small group of extremely wealthy types. The mean is a far more reliable measure, with 50% of the population above and 50% below it.

But thanks for the link - I'll check it out. As I said, I know nothing about Chile except that Pinochet's dictatorship was instrumental in creating Chile's current economic boom.

 

[gouchobob]

Your anti Argentinian propaganda is showing itself to be more ridiculous by the day goucho . Does anyone here living in Argentina seriously believe that Brazil or Chile are better countries for expats?

Brazil is many times as dangerous for major crimes in San Paulo or Rio De Janeiro and its economy is not as strong as Argentinas . Gouchobob do you know that the growth rate in Argentina for the last 10 years has outstripped Brazils each and every year . They are currently growing at 7 percent per annum and while their living situation has improved in the last years they have lower wages in general . Argentina's minimum wage is by far the highest in latin America and the cost of living in Buenos Aires is 30 percent less than Rio and 50 percent less than San Paulo.

In regards to Chile there are very few people who wish to live there as it lacks all the vibrancy and charm of Argentina. The current government of Pinera is repressive with ties to the Pinochet government of the 1970s . Freedom of speech , gay rights, workers wages are way down the list across the border in Santiago De Chile.

Argentina with all its faults is a beacon of hope in the Southern Hemisphere and will continue to be so as shown by 90 percent of all expats choosing this as their home in South America.
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The only propaganda here is yours. You are completely missing the point for some reason (or on purpose) as usual. I was pointing out out that neighboring countries that had similar problems as Argentina seem to be addressing them and that things are getting better there. I didn't say they were necessarily a better place than Argentina just that they are heading in the right direction as countries which I believe Argentina is obviously not. I don't know how long it will take closed minded people like you to acknowledge the facts. Argentina continues in long term decline while Brazil and Chile are clearly on the rise.

 

[gouchobob]

Per capita figures are largely meaningless, as they are easily distorted by a small group of extremely wealthy types. The mean is a far more reliable measure, with 50% of the population above and 50% below it.

But thanks for the link - I'll check it out. As I said, I know nothing about Chile except that Pinochet's dictatorship was instrumental in creating Chile's current economic boom.

Please note that poverty rate in Chile has dropped dramatically, well below that in Argentina, so the per capita increase is being felt by population as a whole. Also Chile has reformed and strengthened many of their democratic institutions which propelled their economic rise and will likely keep it going.