Just one more crisis

[SaraSara]

Good to know the trickle-down effect is working in Chile, and institutions are being strengthened instead of weakened, as is the case here.

Chileans do know how to pick their leaders - every time I see a picture of "our" Cristina standing next to their dignified Michele Bachelet I cringe and wish I had been born on the other side of the Andes.

 

[dennisr]

If you are hurting for entertainment: http://www.businessinsider.com/brazil-geopolitical-situations-2010-10

 

[sergio]

"Most Argentines know full well they live in a Third World country, but feel it's their lot, their homeland - they have no alternative but to stay. In fact, many of them CHOOSE to stay. Even comfortably-off people don't consider emigrating, as their whole lives are invested here: family, roots, lifelong friendships, memories, etc. Many, like myself, spent half their lives overseas but decided to return. "

This is all true but despite roots quite a few Argentines have left and more continue to do so. The problem is that most are not qualified to get visas to live in the US or other desirable countries. My lawyer friends, for example, are stuck in Argentina. Their profession is seldom ever transferrable. Several doctor friends have left for England, the US, Canada and France. Another factor that was not mentioned in these posts is that for professional development highly qualified Argentines leave as they reach a point where there is no room to progress. This happened to two doctor friends of mine (one works in a laboratory). They had reached the top of their profession and there was no room for growth in Argentina due to limited scientific funding.

Some people are not psychologically able to emigrate. Some spouses just refuse. There is an interesting film that deals with emigration though in this case the emigrants were politically motivated: "Made in Argentina".

 

[fifs2]

I hear from friends and relatives who live in Brazil that conditions there are not that good: income inequality is worse than here, and crime in Sao Paulo and Rio much higher. This is just anecdotal evidence - does anyone have any figures? The economy is booming, however, so they are obviously doing something right.

I have no numbers to quote per se but as I have employees in both Brazil and Bsas I can see their perspectives on a daily basic level. Of the 25 Brazilian employees we have 10 own their own appartments - they bought them on bank credit. They earn salaries that are equivalent to their peers in Bsas but without rampant inflation they have more money in their pockets. The Brazil system is much more emplyer friendly and allows us to put much of their pay into non taxable benefits whcih benefits us as well as the employee. We werewarned about opening up in Brazil due to labor law issues...and in 6 years have not had a single issue..unlike the nightmares I have reported her previously. Basically Brazil is on a morestable path aka Chile..and the employees act as such...my posiitve experiences there help taint my view of Argentina for investment I am afraid..others may have different stores to tell.

 

[sergio]

The lack of new foreign investment in Argentina speaks volumes. Without turning into Zimbabwe, is there much more that the government can do to scare off foreign investors?

 

[SaraSara]

"Most Argentines know full well they live in a Third World country, but feel it's their lot, their homeland - they have no alternative but to stay. In fact, many of them CHOOSE to stay. Even comfortably-off people don't consider emigrating, as their whole lives are invested here: family, roots, lifelong friendships, memories, etc. Many, like myself, spent half their lives overseas but decided to return. "

This is all true but despite roots quite a few Argentines have left and more continue to do so. The problem is that most are not qualified to get visas to live in the US or other desirable countries. My lawyer friends, for example, are stuck in Argentina. Their profession is seldom ever transferrable. Several doctor friends have left for England, the US, Canada and France. Another factor that was not mentioned in these posts is that for professional development highly qualified Argentines leave as they reach a point where there is no room to progress. This happened to two doctor friends of mine (one works in a laboratory). They had reached the top of their profession and there was no room for growth in Argentina due to limited scientific funding.

Some people are not psychologically able to emigrate. Some spouses just refuse. There is an interesting film that deals with emigration though in this case the emigrants were politically motivated: "Made in Argentina".

It is true that many leave, but my question is: why so many who could leave elect to stay?

There are many cases like the ones Sergio talks about. Yet there are others who have dual citizenship (generally European, sometimes American) and the means to live off their investments, who still won't leave but continue to struggle here. In some cases, because leaving would put their employees out of work, in others because of family, but mainly because despite all that's wrong with Argentina, they are Argentines and wish to live here.

I'm talking about people with independent means, which could resettle abroad and clip coupons or collect rents and live quite comfortably in Madrid or anywhere else. They could leave, yet they don't.

It is puzzling. The the only reason I can find is that despite hating the Kirchners, the piqueteros, the bureaucracy, and the corruption, they love deeply something they call "the country", a concept I don't exactly understand. Must be something I lost when I emigrated, because staying sounds like sheer lunacy to me.

I guess that when they talk about their love of "nuestro pais" they don't mean the land itself - beautiful, true, but there are other countries even more beautiful, the US for one. Perhaps they may mean Argentina's cultural ways and customs, which to them are quite unique and irreplaceable.

 

[sergio]

I think they stay because of family ties. The rich have very comfortable lives in Argentina however unless they have LOTS and LOTS of money they could not live as well abroad. Also if they come from old "traditional" families they would lose their status. In the US they would be seen as Latinos which is not a very high status. Most of all I think they don't want to separate themselves from their families.

 

[sergio]

MARIO VARGAS LLOSA
PREMIO NOBEL DE LITERATURA 2010

PARA LLORAR!

Comentario de Mario Vargas Llosa .-2009-
(Corto y preciso)

“Argentina, un país que era democrático cuando tres partes de Europa no lo eran, un país que era uno de los más prósperos de la Tierra cuando América Latina era un continente de hambrientos, de atrasados.
El primer país del mundo que acabó con el analfabetismo no fue Estados Unidos, no fue Francia, fue la Argentina con un sistema educativo que era un ejemplo para todo el mundo.

Ese país, que era un país de vanguardia, ¿cómo puede ser que sea el país empobrecido, caótico, subdesarrollado que es hoy?¿Qué pasó?¿Alguien los invadió?¿Estuvieron enfrascados en alguna guerra terrible?.
No, los argentinos se hicieron eso. Los argentinos eligieron a lo largo de medio siglo las peores opciones.
Eso es. El peronismo es elegir el error, perseverar en el error a pesar de las catástrofes que se le han ido sucediendo en la historia moderna del país.¿Cómo se entiende eso?.

Un país con gentes cultas, absolutamente privilegiado, una minoría de habitantes en un enorme territorio que es un continente que concentra todos los recursos naturales.¿Por qué no son el primer país de la Tierra ?¿Por qué no tienen el mismo nivel de vida que Suecia, que Suiza?
Porque los argentinos no han querido. Han querido en cambio ser pobres. Han querido vivir bajo dictaduras, han querido vivir dentro del mercantilismo más espantoso. Hay en esto una responsabilidad del pueblo argentino.
Para mí es espantoso lo que ha ocurrido en Argentina.
La primera vez que fui allí quedé maravillado. Un país de clases medias, donde no había pobres en el sentido latinoamericano de la pobreza.

¿Cómo puede estar una pareja como los Kirchner gobernando ese país?
¡Qué degradación política, qué degradación intelectual!
¿Cómo es eso posible?

MARIO VARGAS LLOSA (2009)

 

[SaraSara]

I think they stay because of family ties. The rich have very comfortable lives in Argentina however unless they have LOTS and LOTS of money they could not live as well abroad. Also if they come from old "traditional" families they would lose their status. In the US they would be seen as Latinos which is not a very high status. Most of all I think they don't want to separate themselves from their families.

Hadn't thought about the loss of status - it's an interesting point.

We did not encounter discrimination in the US, perhaps because we were not dark-skinned. Whenever I said I was Argentine I was told the same thing: "But you don't LOOK Argentinian..."). In the East Coast, at least, Argentine college students were not considered Latinos but exotic specimens - we were included in parties, etc., to add some spice to all-American guest lists.

I really think it all boils down to family, with probably some status thrown in. Some of the people I was thinking of have enough money to keep up the same standard of living wherever they go.

 

[A&A]

Most Argentines have lived in a state of crisis all their lives.

Well, I think they can do this because you guys forget about the following:

Restaurants that will let you linger for hours having a great bottle of wine with friends, instead of trying to bus every crumb off the table in an effort to get you to leave so they can turn another table

Cafes that will let you sit for hours with a single cup of coffee and not shut the Wi-Fi off every hour because you are taking up valuable seats.

Access to nannys, maids, car service, private school ("the team") and excellent private health care (at least in terms of cost to services ratio) for normal people and not just "titans of industry" living on CPW, PCH, or Lakeshore Drive.

family/extended family support system with a much deeper roster and sense of loyalty than most places outside of Peshawar and Edinburgh.

and those little Cokes in glass bottles for like .50 cents

everywhere has their own metaphorical "dog poop" covered sidewalk...(in Tokyo its stifling social repression that lead middle aged men to buy the under garments of school girls.) In the U.S. fat kids drinking a Powerade and cursing out their parents because they didn't pay for their Xbox Live subscription this month....

I mean its no different than how people in Connecticut look at New Jersey..who then points to people in Western Pennsylvana,...and everyone looks at Mississippi, and is like "why are they still living there? I mean in trailers people? really?" But, after spending a time there..it was awesome...and you just don't see the trailers...you just see the people, and the happiness in them...and don;t say: "He could probably manage that Home Depot instead of just being the Paint guy, if he just worked harder." Fact is...he likes paint. The hours are better, the stress is less, and he has time for hunting, picking up his kid at school and makes enough to go to the Sonic....and those Sonic shakes are good. Damn good!