Leaving Argentina with *your* car

[Bajo_cero2]

That seems to be stretching logic to remarkable lengths. I don't drive anymore so I don't care either way but I'd be interested to read your coments if you'd care to develop your reasoning - with attributions of course.

Well, I am a local attorney and I have expressed my arguments widely in other recent thread regarding some strategies to deal with new immigration law changes, so I am going to do a brief:

The National Constitution (bill of rights) says that foreigners have the same civil rights than an Argentinian (art. 20). Then article 14 says that inhabitants (people who lives here and has the willing to do so, it never talks about citizens) have the right to entry, stay, travel and exit the national territory. (There are pacific precedents about this since 1925) and habeas corpus is the remedy for any arbitrary freedom restriction (This is a Constitution mechanism for enforce its supremacy). It is fast, the judge has to give sentence in 24 hs.

I believe that the law you mentioned probably is regarded to former migration law logic (Videla´s law) which saw foreigners as enemies. There is a lot of misunderstanding in bureaucracy about that Videla´s law is abolished.

We have a decentralized constitutional law enforcement control system, it means that all the judges of the country has the duty to enforce the Supreme Law, but if nobody ask for inconstitutionalidad (that something is illegal regarding the Constitutional Law), laws and decretos are assumed legal and enforceable. Judges cannot express the inconstitucionalidad without a victim´s request. Even if they do so with a claiming, this sentence can express the illegality for this case only, judges can not abolish law. There is a strict separation between congress powers and judges powers.

May you please find out according to which law or decreto is that restriction regarding?

I disagree about the insurance argument, I think that all the discrimination with foreigners and immigrants is all about this doctrine that remains from the last dictatorship government.

Regards

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Sara, Thanks again for the info. If you buy and register a car in Uruguay, can you freely take it in and out of Argentina and other south American countries? In other words, could I head over to your nek of the woods, buy the car, then drive back here through Entre Rios without getting taxed or otherwise harassed?

In other news, reading the Chilean expat forum, it appears that they how have strict export restrictions as well. Hard to say for sure because of the ubiquity of misinformation on that forum as well. But maybe Chile is not the nirvana I had hoped for...

Argentina, Brasil and Uruguay are Mercosur countries, so there should not be any restriction. Chile is another situation. I remember barely that if you buy a car there you have to go like once a month the first year to Chile or something like that, but I don´t remember properly, I was planning to by a pick up like 15 years ago.

Regards

 

[elhombresinnombre]

....and habeas corpus is the remedy for any arbitrary freedom restriction....

That, specifically, and the mention of habeas corpus in your earlier post, is what caused my eyebrows to raise. Are you saying that habeas corpus has developed in a markedly different way in Argentina from Spain, for instance? Or the USA? Or Great Britain?

 

[Bajo_cero2]

That, specifically, and the mention of habeas corpus in your earlier post, is what caused my eyebrows to raise. Are you saying that habeas corpus has developed in a markedly different way in Argentina from Spain, for instance? Or the USA? Or Great Britain?

Absolutely!
Habeas corpus is wider in this country regarding to our history (30.000 missing people). There are several kinds of habeas corpus. The classic means "show me the body" which means that you go to a judge and you mention even by phone somebody is missing or arrested and all the state forces has to express if they have him or not immediately and to carry the person under the judge at once. He has to double check if there is a judge´s detention order or not. Or release him. Even with an order, he doble checks it legality with constitutional standard and razonabilidad. And It works. I was part of the dream team that prosecuted former President Fernando de la Rúa because during the 20 of December 2001 crisis, under the "state of siege" (estado de sitio) he order to arrest 28 persons, the judge released them in 4 hours because he understood it was illegal. We prosecuted him by illegal detentions. He was the fist legal President to be interrogated by a judge because illegals detentions.

You have another habeas corpus that is called corrective, which is used when detention condition get worse. Overpopulation for example, lack of proper services like water, cleaning, heating, beds, etc. There was a class action promoted by CELS were Supreme Court established minimum standards of detention, when they can´t full fit them they have to release them:
http://www.cels.org.ar/common/documentos/habeas_corpus_colectivo_cond_detencion.pdf

It has been used also claiming for private life between prisoners and his wifes or couples.

But habeas corpus is available always when the freedom is affected in any way. It has been the tool for defending from deportations for example.

But freedom is affected if you cannot leave the country for example, or entry.

Regards

 

[Ries]

all this constitutional theory is all well and good- but in real life, its just that- theory.

Try explaining to the customs man that the constitution says you can take your car in and out, and see how far you get.

If you have unlimited time and money to hire lawyers and take this to court, maybe, maybe, you will be proved "right" at some time a decade in the future.

But as a practical matter, the law that applies is the law that IS applied, by customs, at the border, not some ideal interpretation of the constitution.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Right and wrong. An habeas corpus sentence is a legal order that must be follow by any state agent. You don´t ague with any agent, you just show the order and they follow it. . This isn´t expensive. It is fast, 24 hs for the juez de primera instancia. Regards

 

[FAS]

Still researching this insane problem of vehicle ownership, non-residency and Argentinian border crossings. It appears that MercoSur policy is ultimately driving Argentine policy on this issue. If you enjoy reading legalese in Spanish, check out Mercosur - Conducción for more information.

My Spanish is far from perfect, so correct me if I am wrong. But if you compare the MercoSur document above to the official English translation of Argentina's Administración Federal de Ingresos Públicos (AFIP) vehicular customs policy you'll note that they list identical requirements for intra-MercoSur travel.

The key requirement is the need for a "documento de identidad válido para transitar en el MERCOSUR," which is translated in the English version as "valid Identity Card to run in the MERCOSUR." I don't think this typically bad translation counts discrimination against long-distance runners or foreign tourists. Apparently, even Argentinian citizens have to secure official permission to travel outside of Argentina in their own car. It's a case of equal opportunity discrimination, if that makes any sense. Indeed, every tourist in a MercoSur member state should be subject to the rule, which means that travelers to Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay, not to mention the associate members like Chile, should by law be stopped at the border as well. Maybe only Argentina is actually enforcing the policy?

The bottom line in this case is that the otherwise sound principle of the "A Factor" must be expanded to the "MS Factor"... Too bad they didn't call the "MercoSur" customs union "BajaSur," because then we could describe it far more accurately as the "BS Factor."

In any event, perhaps the transit ID card requirement actually creates an exploitable loophole: Can a non-resident get one of these transit authorizations with a passport and a CDI? According to the Argentine policy, temporary authorizations can be given to tourists in order to take rental cars outside of the country, for example to places like Ushuaia or, um, the Malvinas - places that are not contiguous with the mainland and thus necessitate border crossings even if you want to stay in-country. The temporary permit is good for up to 90 days. Of course, the policy statement only describes use of a vehicle that you *don't* own. But maybe it's possible for a car you do own as well.

So here is the plan: I will try to talk to a customs rep this week to see if I can get a temporary transit authorization on my own car, just like a rental car. I don't harbor any unrealistic hope, but keep your fingers crossed that someone in the Argentinian government has seen through the problem and knows how to solve it.

Late Update: This blog has a good description of the MercoSur rule in Spanish.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Ok, nice blog but there is no info about what law is enforcing this assert about the requirements. We need this. Regards

 

[FAS]

After further research I've confirmed that there is absolutely no way to get a car you purchased and registered in your name out of Argentina if you are not a citizen or long-term resident or a registered exporter (that is, someone with a DNI). As a perma-tourist with a 90-day visa stamp, you can rent a car and take it across the border relatively hassle-free. But if you own the vehicle you are SOL.

I opened this thread wondering what possible rationale could exist for this restriction. According to the Aduana office on Plaza de Mayo, the rule is designed to curb export fraud. Residents can be tracked down and punished if they fail to return their vehicle to Argentina as required by law. On the other hand if you are a foreigner on a tourist visa you could physically leave without paying export taxes and not suffer any consequences - if, that is, they let you physically leave, which of course the law is designed to prevent.

Finally, as for the obscure "valid Identity Card to run in the MERCOSUR," this is actually a document issued by the Automóvil Club Argentino, not something directly managed by the Argentinian government. As a resident you can get one valid for up to 90 days. But you must join the ACA first and then pay them an additional fee for the "ID card," which is basically nothing more than a triple-A "triptick" back in the US. I went to the ACA office on Libertador to ask (beg, really) for the transit pass. They said show us a DNI card and we will give you want you want.

So that was the end of that.

Check out US Trade Representative's Trade Summary on Argentina for more information about Argentinian policy and how it has changed since the crash in 2002. It's quite shocking.

 

[emilyr]

Wow. So it all comes down to export fraud, of Argentine vehicles?

Call me crazy, but usually people export to make a profit! Why would it ever make economic sense for ANYONE to export a car they purchased at these ridiculously high Argentine car prices, with or without export taxes?!? haha! Thanks for all the interesting info.