Lest we forget

[Wryter47]

One basic thing has continually bothered me, and that is that the former President
has apparently escaped all legal actions aimed at determining whether she in
effect misused or stole government funds during her presidency. It would be
revelatory if an impartial person or agency looked into this in depth, and if proved
accurate, to let the public know that. What exists now has no apparent effect
on anyone in power, which leads some to think both sides of the political spectrum
have many who are feeding at the public's cost and no one wants to be the
one who confronts it. When you say that even the courts refuse to deal with
what seems to me to be a significant issue, it puts the whole political situation
in a position where people believe that there is no real justice, and that to me
is the real shame: No one cares enough to get clear on the robbery and
thievery charges. I could go on, too, as most Argentines of my acquaintance
could, but nothing official ever happens.

 

[on the brink]

How about this: After a brief period, Alberto Fernandez will issue a full Presidential pardon for Cristina, who will then elbow him aside to take first place.

 

[Stantucker]

How about this: After a brief period, Alberto Fernandez will issue a full Presidential pardon for Cristina, who will then elbow him aside to take first place.

I guess there would have to be a conviction first for there to be a pardon, but I have no doubt that neither Cristina nor her children will ever spend a day in jail, either because of the pardon, because the cases get dismissed, or because of a million other possible legal maneuvers. Then she'll have her sites set on 2023 for herself or Maximo. Alberto will have been thrown to the side long before that.

 

[Joglide]

One basic thing has continually bothered me, and that is that the former President
has apparently escaped all legal actions aimed at determining whether she in
effect misused or stole government funds during her presidency. It would be
revelatory if an impartial person or agency looked into this in depth, and if proved
accurate, to let the public know that. What exists now has no apparent effect
on anyone in power, which leads some to think both sides of the political spectrum
have many who are feeding at the public's cost and no one wants to be the
one who confronts it. When you say that even the courts refuse to deal with
what seems to me to be a significant issue, it puts the whole political situation
in a position where people believe that there is no real justice, and that to me
is the real shame: No one cares enough to get clear on the robbery and
thievery charges. I could go on, too, as most Argentines of my acquaintance
could, but nothing official ever happens.

Something is supposedly happening>
Fernández de Kirchner faces a number of possible corruption trials during the current electoral year. In two, her children Máximo and Florencia are also defendants.
In the so-called 'Hotesur case', the family members face money laundering allegations. The investigation is exploring a corruption ring centred on public works graft and the fraudulent rental of hotels rooms involving businessman Lázaro Báez.
Prosecutors believe the Kirchner-owned Hotesur firm was used to launder money and pay bribes, through a corporate, economic and accounting structure that allowed the parties involved to launder illicit funds. The hypothesis of the investigation is that Báez lent the Kirchners money to buy the hotels and used Valle Miter to exploit them as mechanisms to launder money.

You may well be right that the dubious principle of political immunity has enabled her to manipulate the system very skilfully and evade facing charges but however slowly the system did bring a number of her former colleagues to book and in one notorious case jailed the man responsible for neglecting rail safety investment with lethal consequences. The guilty can be brought to justice but Argentina has a history of amnesties for even the most heinous crimes, exampled by the evasion of justice of the military torturers and murderers after Menem and his predecessors gave them in effect a pardon, only overturned by Nestor K in one of his more meritorious acts.

 

[Stantucker]

Something is supposedly happening>
Fernández de Kirchner faces a number of possible corruption trials during the current electoral year. In two, her children Máximo and Florencia are also defendants.
In the so-called 'Hotesur case', the family members face money laundering allegations. The investigation is exploring a corruption ring centred on public works graft and the fraudulent rental of hotels rooms involving businessman Lázaro Báez.
Prosecutors believe the Kirchner-owned Hotesur firm was used to launder money and pay bribes, through a corporate, economic and accounting structure that allowed the parties involved to launder illicit funds. The hypothesis of the investigation is that Báez lent the Kirchners money to buy the hotels and used Valle Miter to exploit them as mechanisms to launder money.

You may well be right that the dubious principle of political immunity has enabled her to manipulate the system very skilfully and evade facing charges but however slowly the system did bring a number of her former colleagues to book and in one notorious case jailed the man responsible for neglecting rail safety investment with lethal consequences. The guilty can be brought to justice but Argentina has a history of amnesties for even the most heinous crimes, exampled by the evasion of justice of the military torturers and murderers after Menem and his predecessors gave them in effect a pardon, only overturned by Nestor K in one of his more meritorious acts.

I agree with your most of your assessment but don't forget the Ks somehow failed to prosecute heinous crimes of armed resistance groups like Montoneros, a good example of which is lack of prosecution of the montonero Mario Firmenich, who now lives the good life in Barcelona as a university professor. Not a bad gig after having killed thousands. I would call that political expediency on the Ks part and the Congress let them get away with it. And I am in no way resurrecting the "dos demonios" theory; I just think all those who killed should have been brought to justice. There are always a few govt ministers who are convicted of justice while the big boys/girls get off scot free. We'll see if this is beginning to change, with what happens with the Ks.

 

[Stantucker]

Felicity Huffman of Desparate Housewives fame was just sentenced to 14 days in jail after pleading guilty to paying to have her daughter's university entrance exam scores improved. Do you think Cristina will ever spend even one day in jail, especially if she is reelected?

Also, mark my words: crimes will increase greatly if FF is elected because of Zaffaronian thinking in the courts and because the Ks have always sent the message that if the "Pueblo" wanted something they didn't have, it was theirs for the taking, even if force was necessary. Crime has come down under Macri, even in spite of the crisis. Today wallets and cell phones were stolen in an Alex Kicillof act. Sign of things to come.

 

[Ceviche]

Felicity Huffman of Desparate Housewives fame was just sentenced to 14 days in jail after pleading guilty to paying to have her daughter's university entrance exam scores improved. Do you think Cristina will ever spend even one day in jail, especially if she is reelected?

Also, mark my words: crimes will increase greatly if FF is elected because of Zaffaronian thinking in the courts and because the Ks have always sent the message that if the "Pueblo" wanted something they didn't have, it was theirs for the taking, even if force was necessary. Crime has come down under Macri, even in spite of the crisis. Today wallets and cell phones were stolen in an Alex Kicillof act. Sign of things to come.

How long have you lived in Buenos Aires? May I know?

 

[Stantucker]

How long have you lived in Buenos Aires? May I know?

Why do you ask?

 

[Ceviche]

Why do you ask?

Once you answer honestly, I will tell you.

 

[Joglide]

I agree with your most of your assessment but don't forget the Ks somehow failed to prosecute heinous crimes of armed resistance groups like Montoneros, a good example of which is lack of prosecution of the montonero Mario Firmenich, who now lives the good life in Barcelona as a university professor. Not a bad gig after having killed thousands. I would call that political expediency on the Ks part and the Congress let them get away with it. And I am in no way resurrecting the "dos demonios" theory; I just think all those who killed should have been brought to justice. There are always a few govt ministers who are convicted of justice while the big boys/girls get off scot free. We'll see if this is beginning to change, with what happens with the Ks.

I appreciate a serious discussion though I am keen on accuracy. What is the basis of the claim that the Montoneros, let alone Firmenich personally, 'killed thousands'? The sources I consult usually number their assisination of prominent politibcal and military or police figures in tens rather than hundreds still less thousands. Eg https://www.latinamericanstudies.org/terrorism/montoneros. There is no moral case that such assasinations are effective or justified but they cannot surely be compared with the widely agreed estimate of 30,000 mainly young people kidnapped, tortured and murdered by the Junta? Firmenich may have escaped personal justice along with the innumerable right wing exiles who fled Argentina to avoid arrest but I cannot see a case for identifying Kirchener as unusually morally derelict when virtually all his predecessors resisted judicial trials of any kind.
The second issue is who are 'the big boys' getting away with it. The classic case is Peron. Overthrown by the military and sent into exile for decades before constitutional changes and then his widow overthrown by the military and many many leading political and labour movement figures removed,terrorised and sometimes murdered. Its difficult to say no leading politician ever ever is brought down or that bringing them down in always a blessing. People get away with crimes in part because the middle ground where we might set rules of decent and fairness is so very eviscerated by violent disagreement and the threat of physical violence from different quarters.