Lest we forget

[Bajo_cero2]

One basic thing has continually bothered me, and that is that the former President
has apparently escaped all legal actions aimed at determining whether she in
effect misused or stole government funds during her presidency. It would be
revelatory if an impartial person or agency looked into this in depth, and if proved
accurate, to let the public know that. What exists now has no apparent effect
on anyone in power, which leads some to think both sides of the political spectrum
have many who are feeding at the public's cost and no one wants to be the
one who confronts it. When you say that even the courts refuse to deal with
what seems to me to be a significant issue, it puts the whole political situation
in a position where people believe that there is no real justice, and that to me
is the real shame: No one cares enough to get clear on the robbery and
thievery charges. I could go on, too, as most Argentines of my acquaintance
could, but nothing official ever happens.

She didn’t escape. She was always voluntary under judgement.
The problem is there was a political persecution using a biased judge like Bonadio. Almost all the cases were made by him and she was found non guilty over and over.
Remember that she was accused of having off shore black money and when they investigated her, they found about 50 MM’s hidden accounts. The justice took control of Correo Argentino this week because the President owes to the treasury 1.4 billion dollars and he was providing Court fake financial info.
The second case of corruption associated with her was the bags of usd of Lopez. It was proben at the trial that he invented the connection with CFK. The bribes were paid by Obedrech and its owner is MM.
Remember Fariña and “La Rosadita”? Fariña was trained to declared against CFK with a fake story and the lawyer who trained him declared at Court.
The Federal Prosecutor who was persecuting CFK was Stornelli who is involved in the D’ Alessio scandal of extortion. Nice.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

How about this: After a brief period, Alberto Fernandez will issue a full Presidential pardon for Cristina, who will then elbow him aside to take first place.

It doesn’t look like she needs it.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I agree with your most of your assessment but don't forget the Ks somehow failed to prosecute heinous crimes of armed resistance groups like Montoneros, a good example of which is lack of prosecution of the montonero Mario Firmenich, who now lives the good life in Barcelona as a university professor. Not a bad gig after having killed thousands. I would call that political expediency on the Ks part and the Congress let them get away with it. And I am in no way resurrecting the "dos demonios" theory; I just think all those who killed should have been brought to justice. There are always a few govt ministers who are convicted of justice while the big boys/girls get off scot free. We'll see if this is beginning to change, with what happens with the Ks.

You level is lack of information is maddening.
Firmenich was judged and sentenced.

Nueva condena de Firmenich.

Nueva condena de Firmenich.. Eduardo Firmenich, líder de la organización guerrillera argentina Montoneros, fue condenado ayer por segunda vez a cadena perpetua por participar en varios atentados cometidos hace 10 años y en los que murieron tres personas.-

www.google.com.ar

Menem gave him an indult. Helloooooooooo.

There is something called double jeopardy that bans the possibility to prosecute twice.
However, here you have another terrorist that was not convicted yet:

La conversión de la piba | La tinta

La transformación de Patricia Bullrich: de la familiaridad con Montoneros a los acuerdos con la CIA

latinta.com.ar

Do you recognize her? She continues sowing terror.

 

[Stantucker]

I appreciate a serious discussion though I am keen on accuracy. What is the basis of the claim that the Montoneros, let alone Firmenich personally, 'killed thousands'? The sources I consult usually number their assisination of prominent politibcal and military or police figures in tens rather than hundreds still less thousands. Eg https://www.latinamericanstudies.org/terrorism/montoneros. There is no moral case that such assasinations are effective or justified but they cannot surely be compared with the widely agreed estimate of 30,000 mainly young people kidnapped, tortured and murdered by the Junta? Firmenich may have escaped personal justice along with the innumerable right wing exiles who fled Argentina to avoid arrest but I cannot see a case for identifying Kirchener as unusually morally derelict when virtually all his predecessors resisted judicial trials of any kind.
The second issue is who are 'the big boys' getting away with it. The classic case is Peron. Overthrown by the military and sent into exile for decades before constitutional changes and then his widow overthrown by the military and many many leading political and labour movement figures removed,terrorised and sometimes murdered. Its difficult to say no leading politician ever ever is brought down or that bringing them down in always a blessing. People get away with crimes in part because the middle ground where we might set rules of decent and fairness is so very eviscerated by violent disagreement and the threat of physical violence from different quarters.

 

[Stantucker]

Sorry about the mess up in my former post.

First of all, if we are going to be accurate, we have to admit that the real number of disappeared and killed by the last military junta is not 30,000, but closer to 9,000, as reported by Graciela Fernandez Meijide in the newspaper El Pais from Spain. Various reports have come up with a similar number, even though it it not the number used here for symbolic purposes. A group called Vision Liberal that advocates for victims of terrorist groups like Montoneros, ERP and like groups has documented 17,380 people attacked, 1094 killed, 2368 wounded and 756 kidnapped by these groups. And not all those victims were govt officials or police, as if that justified those acts of violence against them. Kirchner had the option of having the congress (which he controlled) create laws which would have nullified the commutation of sentences of terrorists like Firmenich and allowed for the prosecution of those not yet tried, but he chose not to. He also chose to give a pension/compensation only to the victims of state-sponsored terrorists, not the victims of armed revolutionary groups. There is no official recognition of those victims in any way that I know of. That Montoneros et al killed only 1000 and not 9000 does not render them guiltless. When I mentioned the big boys/girls getting away with it, I was referring to corruption and breaking the law and was thinking of Carlos Menem who already has at least one conviction, which has been upheld by various courts, and yet he still sits in the Senate, so many years after these crimes were committed.

 

[Joglide]

Sorry about the mess up in my former post.

First of all, if we are going to be accurate, we have to admit that the real number of disappeared and killed by the last military junta is not 30,000, but closer to 9,000, as reported by Graciela Fernandez Meijide in the newspaper El Pais from Spain. Various reports have come up with a similar number, even though it it not the number used here for symbolic purposes. A group called Vision Liberal that advocates for victims of terrorist groups like Montoneros, ERP and like groups has documented 17,380 people attacked, 1094 killed, 2368 wounded and 756 kidnapped by these groups. And not all those victims were govt officials or police, as if that justified those acts of violence against them. Kirchner had the option of having the congress (which he controlled) create laws which would have nullified the commutation of sentences of terrorists like Firmenich and allowed for the prosecution of those not yet tried, but he chose not to. He also chose to give a pension/compensation only to the victims of state-sponsored terrorists, not the victims of armed revolutionary groups. There is no official recognition of those victims in any way that I know of. That Montoneros et al killed only 1000 and not 9000 does not render them guiltless. When I mentioned the big boys/girls getting away with it, I was referring to corruption and breaking the law and was thinking of Carlos Menem who already has at least one conviction, which has been upheld by various courts, and yet he still sits in the Senate, so many years after these crimes were committed.

So agreed there were no thousands killed by montoneros even if we include ERP and others who have been grouped together by those most critical of them. Second as I said that does not justify their deluded strategy which I criticised. Third, the numbers of disappeared is bitterly disputed between those who are most sympathetic to the military and place the figure at 9000 and those who are most critical of the military who claim 30000. Whether individual conservative papers or journalists say does not decide the matter but again rejects any notion of a middle ground consensus. But more importantly the deliberate murder of many thousands by the state armed forces as a policy over several years of terrorising a population should in my view be distinguished from the criminal terrorism of an outlawed organisation. I agree that people like Menem should be brought to book though he is the right wing Peronist so admired by wealthy conservatives who approved and approve his amnesty for crimes committed by the state. Political immunity is a bad practice in Argentina.

 

[Stantucker]

So agreed there were no thousands killed by montoneros even if we include ERP and others who have been grouped together by those most critical of them. Second as I said that does not justify their deluded strategy which I criticised. Third, the numbers of disappeared is bitterly disputed between those who are most sympathetic to the military and place the figure at 9000 and those who are most critical of the military who claim 30000. Whether individual conservative papers or journalists say does not decide the matter but again rejects any notion of a middle ground consensus. But more importantly the deliberate murder of many thousands by the state armed forces as a policy over several years of terrorising a population should in my view be distinguished from the criminal terrorism of an outlawed organisation. I agree that people like Menem should be brought to book though he is the right wing Peronist so admired by wealthy conservatives who approved and approve his amnesty for crimes committed by the state. Political immunity is a bad practice in Argentina.

Graciela Fernandez Mejide is not a conservative journalist but a Madre de la Plaza de Mayo (even though she no longer has any affiliation with them) and a former govt official. She has no need to defend the military. The Comisión Nacional sobre la Desaparición de Personas outs the figure at 9000.

 

[Joglide]

Graciela Fernandez Mejide is not a conservative journalist but a Madre de la Plaza de Mayo (even though she no longer has any affiliation with them) and a former govt official. She has no need to defend the military. The Comisión Nacional sobre la Desaparición de Personas outs the figure at 9000.

As you know the original figure of 9000 was put out by the Commission as the first tangible evidence of definite cases with the explicit proviso that they list was very unlikelyto be exhaustive and that as more evidence emerged the numbers estimated would grow. The New York Times of 2015 report, the History Channel assessment, the Wikipedia overview and several other sources note that the La Nacion statement of the first days of Macri from the right that 9000 was a comprehensive figure was immediately challenged as a political statement supported by Mejide and others no longer sympathetic to continued digging up of graves and evidence. The figure you quote is as I said a conservative minimum estimate which is appalling in itself but is unlikely to be the middle ground figure finally decided on by continuing research. So I say again these statistics are part of a battleground with conservatives seeking always to create a moral equivalence of state sponsored mass murder with the outrages of outlawed and deluded revolutionaries.

 

[perry]

As you know the original figure of 9000 was put out by the Commission as the first tangible evidence of definite cases with the explicit proviso that they list was very unlikelyto be exhaustive and that as more evidence emerged the numbers estimated would grow. The New York Times of 2015 report, the History Channel assessment, the Wikipedia overview and several other sources note that the La Nacion statement of the first days of Macri from the right that 9000 was a comprehensive figure was immediately challenged as a political statement supported by Mejide and others no longer sympathetic to continued digging up of graves and evidence. The figure you quote is as I said a conservative minimum estimate which is appalling in itself but is unlikely to be the middle ground figure finally decided on by continuing research. So I say again these statistics are part of a battleground with conservatives seeking always to create a moral equivalence of state sponsored mass murder with the outrages of outlawed and deluded revolutionaries.

Graciela Fernandez Mejide is not a conservative journalist but a Madre de la Plaza de Mayo (even though she no longer has any affiliation with them) and a former govt official. She has no need to defend the military. The Comisión Nacional sobre la Desaparición de Personas outs the figure at 9000.

This is one of the times I will agree with you Stantucker . I believe the figure of 30.000 to be a gross exagerration and more likely it was less than 10.000 people .

 

[Joglide]

This is one of the times I will agree with you Stantucker . I believe the figure of 30.000 to be a gross exagerration and more likely it was less than 10.000 people .

And on this occasion, once again, Perry, what is your belief based on? We have had similar discussions in the past about this and while we all have intuitive guesses they usually register, as Maynard Keynes often said, either our preconceptions or the views of a past scribbler, as he put it. Conservatives want to believe low figures and radicals want to believe high figures. Lets say you are right. Do you think 'less than ten thousand' murders is morally deplorable maybe or just one of those things?