Let's Make Some Money

[Its_not_me]

I am a manufacturing engineer/cnc machinist that makes very high end goods in my country. Think aviation and spaceflight.

I have never been able to make any contacts down here for that sort of work. I could run a shop myself no problem. I could probably run the fiat plant actually!

I vacation here twice a year for a few weeks at a time. I am in town now actually.

Is there really any manufacturing here besides washing machines and fiats?

I am great in Pro/E and Solidworks, and can program many machine tools.

Archetectual CAD is different than consumer goods but there is some crossover.

 

[mini]

Robearto has already informed us that he plans to pay those who work with him in dollars over drinks and food and apparently has no intention of complying with the labor laws or paying taxes.

I wonder if anyone from AFIP will ever bother to read the posts on this forum and go after Robearto and other scofflaws like him. Sooner or later the "system" will probably catch up with them, one way or another.

Steve really, he didn't say that he was going to pay people with pizza & beer! He said he would hire people on a project basis which is not illegal. If you can invoice people you can be hired this way & you know this. He doesn't need to have any employees. Basically he said he would be working out of his apartment in that he won't need to step a separate office, & why should he? He doesn't have to and he can eat whatever food & drink whatever he likes at his home office.

I agree with JP, why are you so aggressive? If he hires freelancers he is not outside of the law & if he is, then why don't we tell him how to do the work legally instead of stating his plans are to deliberately break the law.

If Roberto has a US company I -believe- he can be invoiced & pay from his US company. If not, then I'd also like to know how to make that happen. Citygirl said something about registering? Does Robert need to register his US company here? It's not illegal either for a US company to contract an Argentine clothing manufacturer (for example) to make his clothes line & send it to the US (or anywhere else) for sale. Why would it be? Better here than China, I'd say.

As for AFIP issues are with those that provide the services, freelance or otherwise. A seamstress such as those who have storefronts that do repairs and make clothes are not required to be my employee if I want to hire them to make me some clothes or to make me a prototype of an idea I have. I just pay them & they deal with their taxes themselves.

Let's not be so cynical as to be insulting or assume the poster is planing illegal & nefarious activities.....

 

[mini]

I am a manufacturing engineer/cnc machinist that makes very high end goods in my country. Think aviation and spaceflight.

I have never been able to make any contacts down here for that sort of work. I could run a shop myself no problem. I could probably run the fiat plant actually!

I vacation here twice a year for a few weeks at a time. I am in town now actually.

Is there really any manufacturing here besides washing machines and fiats?

I am great in Pro/E and Solidworks, and can program many machine tools.

Archetectual CAD is different than consumer goods but there is some crossover.

As far as I've understood it there is very little manufacturing left in the country. After the crisis many companies closed down & there has been no real moves to reopen them. I guess investors are not looking to invest in manufacturing.

There are however still SOME manufacturing or SME such as clothing, furniture, shoes, some "machines" like kilns (made in Cordoba), jewelry making equipment, etc. Those are the ones that I know of or can think of at the moment. I'm sure there are others! But not a great deal of them.

 

[ElQueso]

The only way (that I know of, and I do business here and have done quite a bit of research) for a private citizen of Argentina to work outside of being an employee, legally, is to be a Monotributo. This is like being a quarterly taxpayer in the US, except better, because usually they pay half or less of the normal taxes that an employee pays here.

There is nothing illegal about hiring a monotributo using a company from the US and the US company doesn't have to register with AFIP or anything. If the person that is being hired is a monotributo, they are responsible for creating invoices, paying their monthly taxes, etc, on their own.

The biggest problem that you will get is many Argentinos don't want to work like that. They want a steady job where they can work 30-35 hours a week, never work on the weekend or any holiday and have their medical and retirement contributions paid for by the company they work for.

Those who do like to work on a contract basis (I have found that these guys are usually the more senior of skilled workers, at least in the IT industry) will often want to work in the black, at least partially and at least for awhile, because of the cost to make money up until now.

$72K per year is the current limit for monotributo, which is $6000 pesos a month, or currently around $1600 dollars a month. I pay my senior programmers more than twice that and they cannot work legally in the white and still make enough money for their skill level - not close. The cost, time and hassle to form an SA here and maintain it excludes these guys as an option from doing it. They'd end up making less than they would if they worked at least partially in the black.

Of course, I would not counsel anyone to do anything illegal, but the fact that the laws here restrict business significantly means that many Argentines already work this way and working with them like that, I don't see as morally questionable. The fact is, if you were working with a monotributo person and they didn't do all their paperwork and pay their taxes - that's their problem, not yours.

I won't ever hire an employee here as a business in Buenos Aires, related to my software development business (I am looking at starting up a locutorio/games place soon, and that will all be in the white with one or two local employees, but that's a small scale). My company is a US corporation. I do however contract with individuals here to do work for me, and it is up to them to comply with the regulations of their country, but they receive payments from my US corporation, not from me, and I am not here working officially.

I've had other people tell me that I personally should be paying taxes here. When I end up getting my DNI, that is a completely different story, but as it is, I pay homeowners' fees to the barrio where I live (a portion fo which are used to pay local taxes and fees for the barrio), I pay a portion of the property taxes on the house I live in, I pay an exorbitantly high toll to use the freeway to and from town, and the roads I have to drive on out here haven't been repaired in at least ten years which, to me breaks the contract between the taxes one pays and the results one expects to see from that tax money.

I have health insurance and do not need to use the public hospital option, and I pay plenty of fees when I have to do something official with government. On top of that, I pay a VAT and have never tried to get a refund on that even though I'm technically a foreign tourist and could do so.

 

[Attorney in BA]

Citygirl said something about registering? Does Robert need to register his US company here? It's not illegal either for a US company to contract an Argentine clothing manufacturer (for example) to make his clothes line & send it to the US (or anywhere else) for sale. Why would it be? Better here than China, I'd say.

There is nothing illegal about hiring a monotributo using a company from the US and the US company doesn't have to register with AFIP or anything. If the person that is being hired is a monotributo, they are responsible for creating invoices, paying their monthly taxes, etc, on their own.

From a corporate standpoint, foreign companies are authorized by Argentine law to carry out isolated acts within the country and enter into lawsuits. For the habitual exercise of acts covered by its corporate purpose, the foreign company must set up a branch, office or any other type of permanent representation, it must register itself with the Public Registry of Commerce. Consequences for working without obtaining this registration are not clear. Court rulings lately have gone as far as denying a foreign company its right to claim for its rights in court, even though that's specifically authorized by the law. As for taxes, the foreign company is liable for vat and income tax for all income from Argentine sources. Also, on a municipal level, turnover tax. I'm not a tax expert, so I could be leaving something out.

The only way (that I know of, and I do business here and have done quite a bit of research) for a private citizen of Argentina to work outside of being an employee, legally, is to be a Monotributo. This is like being a quarterly taxpayer in the US, except better, because usually they pay half or less of the normal taxes that an employee pays here.

$72K per year is the current limit for monotributo, which is $6000 pesos a month, or currently around $1600 dollars a month. I pay my senior programmers more than twice that and they cannot work legally in the white and still make enough money for their skill level - not close. The cost, time and hassle to form an SA here and maintain it excludes these guys as an option from doing it. They'd end up making less than they would if they worked at least partially in the black.

This statement is inaccurate. They could get registered with AFIP as "autonomos" (autonomous) and they would have no limit as to what they could invoice per month. Yes, they would be responsible for VAT, income tax and turnover tax depending on the activities. Yes, that is expensive, but there is a legal way of paying them the full amount in "blanco".

The fact is, if you were working with a monotributo person and they didn't do all their paperwork and pay their taxes - that's their problem, not yours.

As long as what you're paying them is within the limit of their monotributo category, and they are invoicing you, that statement is correct. Otherwise, you could be liable for their taxes.

I do however contract with individuals here to do work for me, and it is up to them to comply with the regulations of their country, but they receive payments from my US corporation, not from me, and I am not here working officially.

I also don't agree with this too much, but as my opinion is based on what I stated previously, I won't repeat it now.

ElQueso, I usualy tend to agree with most of the things you say. Today was an exeption. If you want to discuss any of this in more detail send me an email to [email protected] or through my website, www.fandinoabogados.com. Also, if you with, i could send you a brief memorandum detailing the most common investment vehicles for operating in Argentina, tax and labor regulations.

 

[Attorney in BA]

(...) which, to me breaks the contract between the taxes one pays and the results one expects to see from that tax money. (...)

I have health insurance and do not need to use the public hospital option, and I pay plenty of fees when I have to do something official with government. On top of that, I pay a VAT and have never tried to get a refund on that even though I'm technically a foreign tourist and could do so.

I agree completely, and was even discussing something similar with a friend some time ago. The social contract, as what was stated by Locke, Hobbes and Rousseau (with the great differences between them) has been broken in Argentina. The State does not provide the basic services that it should, including security, health, education, etc. and the citizens have to hire them privately.

 

[citygirl]

Agreed - some of the posts (and I hope not mine) were a bit harsh towards the OP. My intent was not to be harsh but to warn him about some of the potential pitfalls if he intends to do business in Argentina.

Mini - you can certainly invoice to/from a foreign entity to a local Argentine entity. We did it that way originally before the SRL was set up here and paid bills from the US company.

However moving money in/out of the country is *very* complicated and there are tax issues (the OP won't be able to reclaim VAT, etc).

Now if the OP wants to hire expats who have bank accounts in the US & pay/bill them from the US, he certainly can operate within the gray area.

 

[RobeartoNYC]

If you are hiring/paying people to work for you in BA and they are not issuing facturas for their services, licensed (registered with AFIP) or not, both parties will be in violation of the law. If all goes "well" you won't get caught, but if anyone you are paying (in dollars off the books) isn't happy or sees you as a financial target, you may suddenly find yourself mired in a lawsuit, typically with the lowest paid (the seamstress).

You probably don't need to care about that, either. You can just get on a plane and leave. Hopefully, for your sake, you won't have any Argentine property; and hopefully, for her sake, you won't have an Argentine girlfriend (I read your post in the Dating Argentines... thread.).

What you don't know about Argentina can really hurt you. It's true that anyone can come to Argentina to write or paint without a license , but, ironically, a license is required for artists to take their own paintings out of the country. You didn't decide to "move" to BA without ever having visited in the first place, did you?

Perhaps it would be more precise to ask, "You're not really moving here, are you?"

Steve- Why are you attacking me? You do not know me, you know nothing about me or my plans, or anything. You don't know if I have a lawyer, if I plan to pay taxes, hire someone... You really don't know shit!

Why don't you stop playing forum police and get a life?

The fact is I am more than willing to comply with whatever laws I need to comply with and pay whatever taxes I need to pay. There are plenty of intelligent replies on this thread, and I will take them all into consideration.

As far as my "dating" habits go??? Why do you care? Who are you? What is your point? GET A LIFE !!!!!!!