Let's Talk About M...

It baffles me how people are still pinpointing the government for this. The only politicians who tried to use this story to their favor are the Ks. I have never heard someone from Cambiemos saying that the Ks are behind this, but I've heard plenty of Ks saying that Macri's team is behind this.

Who should be ashamed for trying to play this news to their advantages?
How can so many people do not see this?
 
Besides, I read a report that he was a nephew of the mother of Fernando Vaca Narvaja, Florencia K boyfriend and father of her child.
It is all min the family, it seems.
 
It baffles me how people are still pinpointing the government for this. The only politicians who tried to use this story to their favor are the Ks. I have never heard someone from Cambiemos saying that the Ks are behind this, but I've heard plenty of Ks saying that Macri's team is behind this.

Who should be ashamed for trying to play this news to their advantages?
How can so many people do not see this?

They've been playing this angle - racists, genocidals - since the election. At some point the big lie starts to sink in.

And it's a deliberate strategy. Witness our very own bajo: as soon as his allegations of fraud in the PASO were shot down, he immediately pivoted to Maldonado.

An effective strategy too, especially among the part of the electorate which is semi-literate at best. Of course it's Macri; who could even imagine otherwise?
 
https://www.prensadi...el-desaparezca/

Ah it wasn't La nacion but La Prensa!

Btw: google isn't wrong about these things....and the examples in which people claim google is wrong are equally as sketchy

In short: I suspect the original points (see Prensa link) are stronger than the rebuttals. Too many details to type on my phone now!

It wasn't La Nacion an it isn't "La Prensa" either: http://www.laprensa.com.ar/

"Prensa Digital" is clearly a fake news site: http://chequeado.com/el-explicador/es-falsoenlasredes-que-el-sitio-de-santiago-maldonado-fue-creado-antes-de-su-desaparicion/

I have never heard someone from Cambiemos saying that the Ks are behind this, but I've heard plenty of Ks saying that Macri's team is behind this.

That would be really amazing considering that the government is in charge on Gendarmeria and not the Ks. There are witnesses and video proof (OOPSIE, THERE ARE FOUR MINUTES, JUST FOUR MINUTES MISSING FROM THE MANDATORY GENDARMERIA RECORDING, DOH) showing that the last time Santiago Maldonado was seen alive he was escaping from Gendarmeria who was firing bullets during an ILLEGAL OPERATION (yes, it was illegal, they had a federal judge's order to clear up the highway which is federal jurisdiction and they had no right to act beyond that). How could anyone in his right mind blame CFK when the one that told Gendarmeria beforehand to wash the vans used in the operation cause the judge was going to order a test on those was Bullrich's chief of staff Pablo Noceti? I'm afraid It wasn't De Vido, Lopez or D'Elia. The cover up is undeniable, there's plenty of proof and even just listening to government officials would suffice as all they did was denying Santiago's presence that day in the highway, saying he has been seen afterwards in multiple locations and even pretending he has been stabbed days before the actual incident. The default procedure is to suspend the forces involved after a claim such as this, why they didn't do it? It's just protocol and a good one given Argentina's history. They didn't do it because they were covering their asses and they should be doing it, there's a penal responsibility for ordering this illegal operation that ended up in Maldonado's murder. Was it their intention? I would bet it wasn't but that's irrelevant for the Law.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBaEsT6lCpo


Aren't all of you aware that the last known picture from Santiago Maldonado was taken by none other than Gendarmeria the day of his disappearance? You should read about Ezequiel Demonty's case if you think this is an accident somehow, Santiago must have drowned in a depth of 30 cms ...

Please read and LISTEN cause here is proof of the cover up:
https://www.pagina12.com.ar/64887-una-voz-en-el-telefono

We know Santiago's cell phone answered a call that lasted around 20 second the day after the incident. If there's no cover up I need to know why there has been no inquiry about the surrounding (around 10) cell phones so far. The same guy that did the investigation to find the culprits of Mariano Ferreyra's murder using the same method has been going to the TV - well, what's left of non government partisan TV - requesting this inquiry to be started for more than a month and guess what ... the Movistar facility holding the original data has been attacked. Is the judge going to order the inquiry after the backup facilities are also vandalized?
 
It's naive to think that the government 'is in charge' of the Gendarmeria as much as it is naive to think they are in charge of the police. The institutions here are still rife with sectarian divides and it's my belief that a few para paramilitaries (read Gendarmeria) made a fatal error with Santiago Maldonado as a way of hitting the Mapuche but it blew up in their faces and his body was carefully hidden in the hope that nobody could pin the crime on them.
The government's reaction was naive also, Patricia Bullrich in particular, bearing in mind the emotion attached to anyone who disappears - ref the long forgotten Julio Lopez. I suspect that they had an idea what happened and decided to play it down, which also backfired.
I also don't believe there's any black hand, K-style, here. Argentines have a certain right to be paranoid, but putting this death in the same category as 1976-1982 is absurd and fuelled by the irresponsible press in this country.
 
Huey, can you post a link to the video proof you mention showing Maldonado fleeing from police shooting? Or is it that the proof is that 4 minutes are missing from a police video (ala the Mary Woods, secretary of Nixon, erasure of Whitehouse tapes) of the police action. Sorry, but my Spanish is not sufficiently fluent to comprehend the subjects discussed in the linked news reports.
It seems to me that Gringoboy has hit the nail on the head. What is key is that the K Klan is trying their damnedest to make it appear that the Macri administration (and Macri himself) is responsible for the death of Maldonado in lieu of some rogue cops/gendarmerie when at worst the certain individuals in the Police Dept or administration clumsily dealt with the fact of the death after the event. As Gringoboy inferred, the attempt by the K Klan to tar Macri with the same horrifying brush of the last junta is demagogic horseshit.
 
It's naive to think that the government 'is in charge' of the Gendarmeria as much as it is naive to think they are in charge of the police. The institutions here are still rife with sectarian divides and it's my belief that a few para paramilitaries (read Gendarmeria) made a fatal error with Santiago Maldonado as a way of hitting the Mapuche but it blew up in their faces and his body was carefully hidden in the hope that nobody could pin the crime on them.

Full control? I totally agree with you BUT politically they are in charge and like it or not this government changed the tone to clearly differentiate itself from the previous one by using the repressive forces in conflicts. I don't seem to remember a murga being shot before as it happened under this government's tenure for instance:
http://www.lanacion....-de-bajo-flores

Repressive forces are out of control and there's a tacit approval given by the government: https://www.cronica....71019-0043.html

In this very same case Noceti not only planned (there was a meeting with the provincial police of Chubut that told him he was on his own with his approach) and ordered to go BEYOND the Law applying flagrancy where there was none, so while I understand and agree with your point (I think I have mentioned in the first page that once they unleash these beast they can't control them) it doesn't change the fact they are politically and criminally responsible for ordering the operation. Are you aware that the gendarme in charge suddenly decided to take a toilet break of 2 hours?

The government's reaction was naive also, Patricia Bullrich in particular, bearing in mind the emotion attached to anyone who disappears - ref the long forgotten Julio Lopez. I suspect that they had an idea what happened and decided to play it down, which also backfired.

Here you are being extremely naive, covering a crime isn't being such, it's another crime that they will eventually have to answer for. If Noceti lives in the mid-term he will end up in prison for not only giving the orders but cover the whole thing up. Julio Lopez might be forgotten by some but he's certainly not forgotten by his son, you can read his statements comparing previous and current government behavior.

Huey, can you post a link to the video proof you mention showing Maldonado fleeing from police shooting? Or is it that the proof is that 4 minutes are missing from a police video (ala the Mary Woods, secretary of Nixon, erasure of Whitehouse tapes) of the police action. Sorry, but my Spanish is not sufficiently fluent to comprehend the subjects discussed in the linked news reports.

There's graphical evidence and the government was aware of that from the beginning: https://www.pagina12...tiago-maldonado

And there are witness accounts, why they would make them up? The guy has been found dead since all the government campaign denying his presence in the highway. And this wouldn't be the first time at all, you can Google caso Carrasco (torture went too far, after a month the body appeared in the middle of nowhere, it was proved that it had been kept in the military facilities for over 20 days), Ezequiel Demonty (tortured and forced to jump in the river despite not being able to swim), Luciano Arruga (hit by a car trying to escape from the police forces that had kidnapped and tortured him) or Gaston Duffau (tortured, murdered and covered according to Clarin: https://www.clarin.c...Jxl41AA6Yg.html), they have a long history of this kind of behavior.

There are other videos where you can see how they were firing bullets and using shotguns:
https://www.youtube....h?v=iUO6ycsabiw
https://www.youtube....h?v=T3b5JJMbhdA

Gendarmeria said first there were NO videos recorded you know, a bit fishy, isn't it? Gendarmeria first said they never reached the river ... this has been proven FALSE too in gendarmes statements.

"Ayer, Zoilán también declaró cómo escuchó que uno de sus pares gritó: “¡Acá hay uno!”. Detalló que era en un sector del río que él no veía y que quien hablaba era el cabo Carlos Peloso, que les indicaba a otros compañeros dónde estaba uno de los miembros de la comunidad en las aguas del Chubut. El relato deja en evidencia algo que ya había empezado a delinearse en las anteriores declaraciones de otros gendarmes, que se produjeron esta semana, y que da cuenta del avance de la fuerza en el territorio, más allá de donde habían asegurado inicialmente.

http://www.perfil.co...dicciones.phtml

"Les dimos corchazos para que tengan"
http://www.lapolitic...om/nota/108492/


It seems to me that Gringoboy has hit the nail on the head. What is key is that the K Klan is trying their damnedest to make it appear that the Macri administration (and Macri himself) is responsible for the death of Maldonado in lieu of some rogue cops/gendarmerie when at worst the certain individuals in the Police Dept or administration clumsily dealt with the fact of the death after the event. As Gringoboy inferred, the attempt by the K Klan to tar Macri with the same horrifying brush of the last junta is demagogic horseshit.

First they are responsible like it or not, I'm afraid there's no need to make any effort and the Law in Argentina says so, this is a desaparicion forzada. Second how could you disregard the cover up? This is another crime in itself and there's plenty of proof about it (Noceti asking Gendarmeria to wash the vans used in the operation is in writing, there are cell phone conversations recordings too, etc.).

One should wonder why there so much willingness to defend the government actions, they didn't side with the family from the first day, they didn't suspend the accused, instead the spread false information and even provided a phone number to report people talking about Maldonado's in schools. They covered the whole thing up or don't you remember the crazy theories?

It's clear that the government didn't plan to kill Santiago Maldonado BUT they order the illegal operation (something nobody can deny) that resulted in his death so they are responsible.
 
Spare us your sob stories please Huey since you, and I dare say many other conspiracy theorists would have Macri painted as the next repressive Great Dictator, a detail not lost on CFK and her fanatical supporters (or would worshippers be more appropriate?)
But I digress, by quoting the Bajo Flores story you conveniently failed to mention that two officers had been shot at (and severely wounded) from buildings in the area, prior to the rubber bullets being fired and these incidents occurred in January 2016, barely a month since the change of government.
In Merlo in the same month an off duty police officer was shot and killed when thugs tried to steal his bike.
Here: http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1866883-gendarmes-baleados-en-la-villa-1-11-14 in the second report.
Whilst I don't condone police brutality, you cherry pick the pizza man story, which is tragic in itself and cite is as 'tacit approval of police violence by this government', but fail to mention the dangerous environments the police have to cope in.
The article from Pagina 12, a known K publication by the way, shows the alleged last picture of Santiago and that's it. It ultimately proves nothing.
 
I really appreciate you laying down a pattern of how repressive forces in Argentina have been acting unprofessionally (firing rubber bullets to underage kids playing in a murga for completely unrelated reasons) after seeing red mist (kicking the shit out of a guy for not paying a dinner resulting in his death). This might very well be what happened to Maldonado after a gendarme was hit with a stone in the face. Conspiracy theory? There are witnesses, regardless of how much you won't go into that. On the other hand I don't appreciate so much you defending the murderers at all costs and referring to very well known cases of repressive forces murdering citizens as my sob stories (are really those mine or the victims and their families?) but I guess we'll have to agree on disagreeing. Most probably we won't agree either on you being allowed to ever dare mentioning the name of Julio Lopez again after such statement. I don't know why I've the impression you have never ever in your life gone to protest so his repressive forces murderers get jailed.

Why should I have to mention something that has not changed lately? Or are you telling us that since Macri is in charge insecurity has raised so much to account for this kind of behavior? You aren't, right? Then I'm afraid you argument is extremely weak and the very definition of cherry-picking is the way you have answered so far in this thread without properly quoting and disregarding multiple arguments (feel free to cry about me doing so here, although you might find that in the end I answered to every one of your points without having to retort to personal attacks, coff, coff). I really enjoy the impressive amount of effort necessary to deny how the government's relation with repressive forces has changed since Macri took power, keep on the good work!

You are right, that's alleged to be his last picture and you can choose to believe Maldonado doesn't even exist or some other bullshit stories told by the government partisan media (which is around what, 90%), so far everything the government has alleged has been lies. They said he wasn't even there, they said he was seen in several other places after the incident, they said that there was a 20% chance of him being in Chile. This proves something: the government has been lying through their teeth and covering the operation's results. What this pictures prove to the judges (in plural as this won't end on primera instancia) in the end it's something to be seen. On the other hand Verbitsky has been uncovering stories for some time, one of the latest about how Macri's family has declared the tax money the had previously evaded :) Has it even been denied? I'm afraid not, I think they fired some officers and tried to find out the exact source but denying it nope.

PS. The cherry on top: http://www.lapoliticaonline.com/nota/104531/
 
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