Malvinas Spat ( United Kindgom beating war drums )

[bloody_bloo]

Matt84, I didn't want to be rude, sorry about that.

Now, Viedma was founded in 1779 and is some 200 km south from Bahía Blanca. Argentina did indeed have a coastline just after independence. Your map is quite weird.

I would love it if a negotiated solution is found. One face-saving solution for both sides. Something like integrating the Malvinas as an Argentine province with great autonomy, letting them keep their language, property, culture, etc. (à la Catalunya). Even letting the UK keep the military base there, as a sort of 'monitor'. Oil and fishing revenues to be shared. Wouldn't it be great?

That's quite a dream! But I agree it would be an acceptable ending.

 

[Futboljunkie]

what did you mean by "stop pumping gas"? Does argentina supply the falklands now with gas?

No, but they do supply it to Chile and as long as Chile is offically at war with Bolivia there is no way for them to get it from another source

 

[Futboljunkie]

It probably would be far cheaper to include argentina in it, but I think the UK is not too happy with argentina's attitude towards all of this (especially wanting to always talk about sovereignty) so I fully expect them to go solo with this and not include them in any way. Yes, it makes it more expensive, but once the depot is built (in a sparsely populated part, like in west falkland) it's done - then the difference between a tanker voyage to the UK from the falklands or from argentina is just a day or so.

it's all guessing now anyway...they haven't found anything yet

I did never swimm it but after looking at the map I think it's not quite true

 

[Futboljunkie]

That's quite a dream! But I agree it would be an acceptable ending.

It will never happen offcourse, why would the Falklanders accept to share the money they earn if they can also keep it to themselves?

The most likely scenario after the current standstill with loads of Gaucho populism would be that England and Argentina jointly develop the oil fields and England providing Argentina oil with a long term contract at a discounted rate.

 

[esllou]

I did never swimm it but after looking at the map I think it's not quite true

I came here on a container ship, so I know something about how far a big ship doing 20-22 knots can cover in a day.

UK to BsAs is 7000 miles. UK to Falklands is 7700 miles. So that's an extra day and a half of sailing. Plus of course, the oil has to be taken from the falklands area to the argentine mainland if that was the agreement.

so you'd take the oil from the sea and transport it to argentina and then tankers would have to sail most of the way anyway. Easier to cut out the middle man and just sail it direct from a new depot built on the falklands. No worrying about "permits" either.

 

[MaGRon]

http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html...andshistory.org/gettingitright.pdf&images=yes

 

[Futboljunkie]

I came here on a container ship, so I know something about how far a big ship doing 20-22 knots can cover in a day.

UK to BsAs is 7000 miles. UK to Falklands is 7700 miles. So that's an extra day and a half of sailing. Plus of course, the oil has to be taken from the falklands area to the argentine mainland if that was the agreement.

so you'd take the oil from the sea and transport it to argentina and then tankers would have to sail most of the way anyway. Easier to cut out the middle man and just sail it direct from a new depot built on the falklands. No worrying about "permits" either.

Falklands - UK is the same as Falklands - Argentine mainland?

 

[almagestos]

Creo que observando este mapa no quedan dudas de quienes son los invasores y quienes los invadidos xD

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:The_British_Empire.png

¿O acaso todos esos territorios también pertenecían legítimamente al R.U? xD

Cuando miro ese mapa me da risa... los ingleses parecen ser como Pinky y Cerebro tratando de dominar al mundo jajajaja....

Igualmente lo que más tristeza me da de todo esto, es que van a venir a contaminar nuestro mar y todos los animales que viven en él... no les alcanzó con sobreexplotar su biodiversidad... ahora vienen por el petróleo... lamentablemente son como las langostas, destruyen todo a su paso... lo mismo hicieron con el bosque chaqueño... la forestal lo destruyó completamente...

Y ni hablar de las mineras extranjeras que están desvastando los Andes....

Pero supongo que los argentinos tenemos culpa de dejar que pase esto...

 

[Matt84]

There are twice-weekly flights to the UK now. 17 hours. How do you think argentina would stop chile receiving flights?

I've known oil workers from saudi, jordan, libya, places like this. Really grim places where you're living on an expat compound for months at a time - because the money is fantastic. Basically, they suck it up and think of the money going into their accounts. Where they go on their few days off is not really a big concern. If it was, the UK is 17 hours away.

what oil refinery/tanker facilities does argentina have? I really don't see any need to include argentina in the process of shipping the oil back to the UK (or to markets). If there was a chance of that happening, the argentine government's new permit legislation has just put paid to it. The oil will be pumped ashore to the falklands and a new depot will be built to take tankers. That's normally what happens when oil is found.

You can say that again. Argentina does have a pipeline network and oil refineries (I believe in dock sud or La Plata's port, or both) but that's not the issue. Angolan oil is not refined in the Africa and they store it in Cabinda within a heavily guarded compound surrounded by a landmine field. Far from glamorous but that's the beauty of the oil industry: it pays off.

Matt84, I didn't want to be rude, sorry about that.

Lol, I've been called worse, no offense taken - whatsoever

Now, Viedma was founded in 1779 and is some 200 km south from Bahía Blanca. Argentina did indeed have a coastline just after independence. Your map is quite weird.

Then let's explore different maps.

I've checked that Viedma was indeed "founded" in 1779, but the question is: was it a nominal foundation as in some officials papers sent to the King (i.e. not even a military outpost (like Fuerte Bulnes) ) or a real settlement? I hardly doubt that: I've been reading a lot about the foundation of the Argentine Navy by Irish-come-Argentine William Brown and it seems that that the Bahia Blanca was oozing with British Privateers (which helped the Independence cause) while inland was just roaming Indian tribes.

I mentioned Perito Moreno ("Argentine Louis n Clark") because he was born in 1852 and was hired to chart Patagonia after the Conquista del Desierto (have a 100 peso note at hand?).

I apologize in advance for hijacking the thread but I'm just fascinated by maps and history:

This is the map I was thinking of when I wrote about Argentina not having a seacoast during the Revolution:

Seems quiet right to me: Argentina comes from the northwest, didn't it separated fromt the Vyrrreynato del Peru in 1776, with Tucuman and Buenos Aires being the most important cities? Wasn't Buenos Aires the only seaport well into the XIX century, and thus a source of many conflicts between Buenos Aires and the inland provinces?

Here you can see how both Patagonia and Chaco were the last two regions of Argentina to be settled, or incorporated:


But I've also found these other maps which I suspect refer mainly to claims, not actual incorporation:


1858: notice the dotted line separating Buenos Aires from the Pampas-Patagonia

1860:

1874:
http://www.rare-maps.com/MAPS_PIC/MIT-1874-NEWGRANADA.JPG

I think this might also explain why the Argentine coast is so underdeveloped and sparsely populated compared to the rest of the country - and also why Chileans like to claim most of Patagonia for themselves (notice how Chile extended farther south than Rio de la Plata, including again, the important military outpost of Fuerte Bulnes at Magellan Strait)

 

[esllou]

Falklands - UK is the same as Falklands - Argentine mainland?

the oil will be going back to the UK. There's simply no reason to "call in" on the argentine coast on the way back. It would actually lengthen the trip back.