NY Post: What's the deal with Buenos Aires?

SaraSara said:
Just in case someone is interested: middle class Args. see themselves as Europeans because many of them are, in fact, 100% ethnically European. The Spaniards, and later Roca, had a policy of exterminating the natives to make room for cattle, so there was much less crossbreeding here than in other SA countries. Uruguay is the same.

SaraSara, I'd bet that the majority of people posting here at BAExpats.org who come from countries once colonized by Europeans are, in fact, 100% "ethnically European." Big deal.

Only in Argentina have I seen so much European ass-kissing. And I'd bet that there are more than a few Argentines who imagine that going back to Spain or Italy will be like some warm homecoming and that they'll be welcomed as part of the European family as soon as they arrive.

When I was living in Spain a few years ago, I met plenty of Spaniards who weren't shy about blaming just about everything on Argentines. And a few years before that, I traveled through Italy for a while with an Argentine girl who, although I didn't realize it at the time, was probably pretty heartbroken about how Italians viewed her as a foreigner (even though she spoke Italian pretty well, as far as I could tell) and not as one of their own. And only after going to Argentina myself years later did I learn why there were these Italian girls sitting by us on an overnight train pointing and smirking at her while she poured us Fernet and Cokes.

A Dutch friend of mine once told me about how silly white Africans of Dutch descent appear when they visit the Netherlands and speak and act in ways that they believe to be Dutch but which are generations removed from the ways that modern Dutch people behave. This sort of thing happens everywhere. There are lots of young people who have identity crises and go storming off to where their parents or grandparents are from to "find themselves" only to learn pretty quickly how culturally removed they are from a country they weren't born or raised in.

For those of us from countries without silly identity problems, this really isn't that big a deal. Being American or Canadian or Brazilian or Australian or whatever else is awesome. We're able to simply acknowledge that the cultural umbilical cord has been cut and move on with our lives.

But for Argentines, who are so deeply invested in the idea that they are "European" (and even live amongst copies of European buildings), I'd bet that this realization is a bit more difficult. After growing up convinced of their European-ness, being regarded as a nuisance by Spaniards and Italians must come as a bit of a shock. Because it means having to accept that they are merely Argentine and, well, Argentina is a mess that, beyond tango, hasn't contributed much to the world. Certainly more satisfying to think of one's self as "Spanish" or "Italian."

For Argentina's sake, young Argentines should start building an Argentine culture that isn't so subservient to Europe. Grow a pair, Argentines! Need some encouragement? Take a trip to Brazil. Brazilians aren't whiny douches pretending to be Portuguese. They're Brazilian! They've got all their own awesome Brazilian stuff. You can, too, Argentines! You just need to cut the damn cord already. :)
 
ssr said:
SaraSara, I'd bet that the majority of people posting here at BAExpats.org who come from countries once colonized by Europeans are, in fact, 100% "ethnically European." Big deal.

Only in Argentina have I seen so much European ass-kissing. And I'd bet that there are more than a few Argentines who imagine that going back to Spain or Italy will be like some warm homecoming and that they'll be welcomed as part of the European family as soon as they arrive.

When I was living in Spain a few years ago, I met plenty of Spaniards who weren't shy about blaming just about everything on Argentines. And a few years before that, I traveled through Italy for a while with an Argentine girl who, although I didn't realize it at the time, was probably pretty heartbroken about how Italians viewed her as a foreigner (even though she spoke Italian pretty well, as far as I could tell) and not as one of their own. And only after going to Argentina myself years later did I learn why there were these Italian girls sitting by us on an overnight train pointing and laughing at her when she poured us Fernet and Cokes.

A Dutch friend of mine once told me about how silly white Africans of Dutch descent appear when they visit the Netherlands and speak and act in ways that they believe to be Dutch but which are generations removed from the ways that modern Dutch people behave. This sort of thing happens everywhere. There are lots of young people who have identity crises and go storming off to where their parents or grandparents are from to "find themselves" only to learn pretty quickly how culturally removed they are from a country they weren't born or raised in.

For those of us from countries without silly identity problems, this really isn't that big a deal. Being American or Canadian or Brazilian or Australian or whatever else is awesome. We're able to simply acknowledge that the cultural umbilical cord has been cut and move on with our lives.

But for Argentines, who are so deeply invested in the idea that they are "European" (and even live amongst copies of European buildings), I'd bet that this realization is a bit more difficult. After growing up convinced of their European-ness, being regarded as a nuisance by Spaniards and Italians must come as a bit of a shock. Because it means having to accept that they are merely Argentine and, well, Argentina is a mess that, beyond tango, hasn't contributed much to the world. Certainly more satisfying to think of one's self as "Spanish" or "Italian."

For Argentina's sake, young Argentines should start building an Argentine culture that isn't so subservient to Europe. Grow a pair, Argentines! Need some encouragement? Take a trip to Brazil. Brazilians aren't whiny douches pretending to be Portuguese. They're Brazilian! They've got all their own awesome Brazilian stuff. You can, too, Argentines! You just need to cut the damn cord already. :)


You sound like an arrogant arse and reading your posts confirms that you have this New York attitude that you can change the natives to your idea of civilisation.

You do not like it here fine go to Brazil its a short plane ride away;)
 
ssr,

Your post is just what I expected: a collection of well-worn, tired cliches about Argentina. Goodness, can they get repetitive...!

I've read the same things here before - posted over and over again ad nauseam in forums and shallow magazine pieces like the one mentioned in this thread. That kind of cliche mentality is the reason my post started with: "Just in case someone is interested". I meant: someone with an open mind --- someone who doesn't think in cliches --- someone willing to view things from a different angle. (Someone like Pericles, for instance.)

But too many posters here are wedded to the preconceptions they arrived with, and remain resolutely deaf and blind to anything that contradicts them.

After all, they already know everything there is to know about this place, and their credentials are impressive indeed: they have stayed in Recoleta or Palermo for a while. This, in their minds, qualifies them as experts on Argentina and on those hapless creatures, the Argentines!.

Sadly, all they may really know is a tiny part of Buenos Aires. And during their stay in a tiny section of this huge city they may only have socialized with other expats, or with some kindly Argentine willing to talk to them.

However, that kind of expat doesn’t always listen, as shown by your last sentence: 'For Argentina's sake, young Argentines should start building an Argentine culture that isn't so subservient to Europe."

That's EXACTLY what I said Argentines were doing. Didn't you read my post? Or did your pet cliches stand in the way of your understanding it?

Perhaps you prefer to stick to preconceptions - that is far easier than puzzling things out by oneself. Independent thinking takes time, and a lot of brains. Absent that, just label a place a "shithole" - as you did in another post - and keep spouting cliches.

Now, here's what I find intriguing:

If your consider Buenos Aires such a "shithole", and yet you freely choose to spend time in it: what does that make you......?

A four letter word comes to mind, but I nobly refrain from using it.

:D:p:D

----------------------------

p.s. No offense intended - just continuing your line of thought.
 
ssr said:
For Argentina's sake, young Argentines should start building an Argentine culture that isn't so subservient to Europe. Grow a pair, Argentines! Need some encouragement? Take a trip to Brazil. Brazilians aren't whiny douches pretending to be Portuguese. They're Brazilian! They've got all their own awesome Brazilian stuff. You can, too, Argentines! You just need to cut the damn cord already. :)

They have contributed to the world. René Favaloro, an Argentine cardiologist created the technique for coronary bypass surgery. My grandma had that surgery so I can in a round about way say an Argentine saved my granny :)

Obviously, Maradona means something in the world of sports (even if I don't much like his attitude, he is a epic). Not to mention Messi, the "best player in the world".

Carlos Gardel is quit the guy. So, yeah, maybe if you don't like tango he doesn't mean much but I think he's kind of enchanting.

Jorge Luis Borges is one of my all time favorite authors.

You got to give them some kind of credit. For a country that has been through so much some really great people have come out of it.

Check out the list of famous argentines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Argentines
 
Ok, just to get things back on track..and the OP:

It's The Post people, I mean really? Were you expecting Pulitzer Prize winning stuff. For those that don't know...it's the paper that would sooner put Boobs than Brains on the Cover. It sells for 50 cents, and the ink runs all over your hands, and if you can't finish it cover to cover on your subway commute, you work at home.

So why fight and sweat over the comments. Everyone has their own reasons for being in BA or not, or wanting to come. And they will tell you their reasons are better than yours....(that sounds Argentinian?)
 
ssr said:
For those of us from countries without silly identity problems, this really isn't that big a deal. Being American or Canadian or Brazilian or Australian or whatever else is awesome. We're able to simply acknowledge that the cultural umbilical cord has been cut and move on with our lives.

But for Argentines, who are so deeply invested in the idea that they are "European" (and even live amongst copies of European buildings), I'd bet that this realization is a bit more difficult. After growing up convinced of their European-ness, being regarded as a nuisance by Spaniards and Italians must come as a bit of a shock. Because it means having to accept that they are merely Argentine and, well, Argentina is a mess that, beyond tango, hasn't contributed much to the world. Certainly more satisfying to think of one's self as "Spanish" or "Italian."

For Argentina's sake, young Argentines should start building an Argentine culture that isn't so subservient to Europe. Grow a pair, Argentines! Need some encouragement? Take a trip to Brazil. Brazilians aren't whiny douches pretending to be Portuguese. They're Brazilian! They've got all their own awesome Brazilian stuff. You can, too, Argentines! You just need to cut the damn cord already. :)

You're kidding right? I can think up a whole list of Latin American countries that suffer from their own "identity" problems, including Brazil. In the same sentence that Brazilians from the South boast of "authentic" Brazilian culture in the North, they've got something negative to say about those "lazy" Bahians. The difference in places such as Mexico, Colombia, Brazil or DR is it's a love/hate relationship.

Sure they propagate "mestizaje" or race-mixing in the name of brotherhood and decry the European conquistadors, but is that what's really going on? Emulating Europeans is pretty much what the elite/wealthy in these countries do (not all of course)! Studying in Europe is a sign of accomplishment and refinement, not backwardness. I just can't see how this issue is unique to Argentina.

At least a majority of Argentines can actually say their grandparents were from Spain or Italy. That's more than I can say for other places, save for the blond, blue-eyed "Mexican"novela stars that are in actuality one generation removed from Europe.

Hopefully Argentine culture will continue to develop into something of its own. I can't speak on the American, Canadian, Australian bit.

(I know, I know, way off topic, but I couldn't help but respond)
 
since this site censors and bans people without warning I have gone with my thoughts elsewhere
 
since this site censors and bans people without warning I have gone with my thoughts elsewhere
 
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