Obamacare: Say goodbye to Grandma and the grandkids!

jp said:
I'm not sure why people assume obama was going to turn politics on its head and his presidency was somehow going to be unburdened by 200 years of social and economic inertia. Society isn't going to painlessly change overnight, but pretending its incapable of change is fantasy.
I don't think anyone but the wildest groupies ever did think so, but now he's criticised for not being some kind of messiah - and if he's not the messiah... let's crucify him!

All this distilled venom coming from both left and right is likely to leave Americans without adequate health cover. Only the very rich and very stupid will be cheering at that.
 
Steve-in-Buenos, you cannot win this fight and may as well concede as much now. You've attempted an argument from principle -- whether principles that others accept as their own or not is immaterial -- but are being met not with reasoning from other principles (save from BigBad) but with the urgings of personal advantage and convenience. Unless you can show these others how such short-sighted self-centeredness will kill the society they exploit, you simply will not be able to dissuade them.

Ries said:
I am proud to say my ancestors were "illegal aliens" . . . .
 
A principled argument wouldn't fall apart quite so quickly when it was fact checked, or referenced with the countless other western industrialised nations who can offer citizens universal healthcare without imploding.
 
RWS said:
Steve-in-Buenos, you cannot win this fight and may as well concede as much now. You've attempted an argument from principle -- whether principles that others accept as their own or not is immaterial -- but are being met not with reasoning from other principles (save from BigBad) but with the urgings of personal advantage and convenience. Unless you can show these others how such short-sighted self-centeredness will kill the society they exploit, you simply will not be able to dissuade them.

My "self-centeredness" is that I am perfectly willing to pay HIGHER TAXES so poor people arent dumped in their wheelchairs from vans in the night.
So people with breast cancer can be treated.
So children can have corrective surgery even if their dads work at McDonalds.

This is most certainly not about MY convenience- I make enough money to pay for my own health care, and I do- I have never had an employer pay for my, or my families heath expenses, but have paid for it myself all my working life.

The only "principle" I see being bandied about by republicans in the USA is the one of greed- the one that says, I will turn my head, and raise my $200 shoe, to avoid stepping in the blood of that homeless, sick person on the sidewalk, to avoid paying higher taxes.

Although, of course, by cutting the 30% that the insurance industry skims off the top, there is no reason that true universal coverage could not be achieved at about half the current cost, resulting in a savings.
 
harpo said:
But a crook with a health care plan. Unless, along with Steveinbsas, you think the whole concept is some kind of socialist plot, I would suggest you support any attempt to bring this in, no matter how flawed. The next opportunity could be decades away.

It's exactly the same kind of thinking that led to Obama getting elected in the first place (and was used as an argument for Kerry and Gore before him): that he and the policies he's pushing are ever so minutely the lesser evil. But what's he pushing is not a health care plan when you examine the details. It's a gross betrayal of a major chunk of his constituency. And it favors the private sector interests he's supposed to be combating. It's not enough to say that the next opportunity for this piece of **** legislation could be decades away. I'm sick of listening to this kind of talk.

Obama is an unprincipled and spineless wimp. He is not Lyndon Johnson. And the times are different. The rich have complete control of the state. A quiet coup achieved over the last four decades.

The reality is that unless people takes to the streets in droves and there are mass demonstrations and civil disorder, nothing of substance is going to change. Americans need to act like Frenchmen, Greeks, and Latvians.
 
redrum said:
First step that we all need to take is to break the conditioning of the false left vs right paradigm. I have said this before in previous posts, there is no difference between the democratic and republican parties aside from political ideologies to which only lip service is paid. In short, they both work for the same team i.e. goldman sachs and/or other crooked wall street bankers, businessmen and old school money(domestic and European).

These days, a candidate does not get the dem or repub party nomination unless he/she is already a member of the team. they control both candidates. i was against Bush the same way i am against Obama - because neither one of them work for the American people. it's all political theater. it's a show put on for the benefit of the american people in order to perpetuate the illusion of democracy, which we all know is a sham. think about this. hasn't anybody noticed that no matter which party gets elected to office that nothing ever really changes. all we do is move back and forth like a ball on a tennis court. This has been happening for decades.

Please do not get caught up into thinking that obama bashing is republican propaganda. That is EXACTLY what they want you to think. They WANT you to be caught up in the midst of the false left/right paradigm and there you will stay for years on end, never knowing the truth that the game rigged.

In terms of the health care bill - A pattern has quickly emerged in Washington where yet another bill is being rammed down our throats. Another bill that nobody is reading - another bill that must be passed in a ridiculously short period of time - another bill where FEAR is being used as the major push for reform. One thing is clear - more government control and regulation is the LAST thing that a free society needs. The government is inept. The government is corrupt. The government JUST KEEPS GETTING BIGGER AND BIGGER.

OK, Yeah, I agree with all of the above 100% (cut out a tiny bit). It all is a big show BUT somebody has to do SOMETHING or as Jim Morrison said: "THE WHOLE SH*T HOUSE IS GOING TO GO UP IN FLAMES" (and it's gonna happen soon - thank God I don't have any kids. Promised myself I'd NEVER have children as long as I lived in the USA)
 
bigbadwolf said:
It's exactly the same kind of thinking that led to Obama getting elected in the first place (and was used as an argument for Kerry and Gore before him): that he and the policies he's pushing are ever so minutely the lesser evil. But what's he pushing is not a health care plan when you examine the details. It's a gross betrayal of a major chunk of his constituency. And it favors the private sector interests he's supposed to be combating. It's not enough to say that the next opportunity for this piece of **** legislation could be decades away. I'm sick of listening to this kind of talk.

Obama is not Lyndon Johnson. And the times are different. The rich have complete control of the state. A quiet coup achieved over the last four decades.

The reality is that unless people takes to the streets in droves and there are mass demonstrations and civil disorder, nothing of substance is going to change. Americans need to act like Frenchmen, Greeks, and Latvians.

BBWOLF, as usual, I DO agree with you. The problem is the day the "American people take it to the streets in droves" is the day I have U2 play a concert in my backyard for Labor Day - ain't gonna happen. This is the problem, your idea's are great and spot on.... except they'll never happen. The vast majority of the American people would have to wake up - that ain't gonna happen. Most people on this board know what's REALLY going on but that's not even enough to fill out my U2 Backyard B-B-Que !!! I'm right there with you Wolf (in agreement) but this ain't never gonna happen - the deed's already been done - you said it yourself - "Quiet Coup over the last 40 years". I say it STARTED on Nov. 22, 1963 when the fools bought into Oswald and his $25 dollar single bolt garbage rifle - Oswalds interrogations include no sound recordings (tape or video) nor note taking. He is killed 24 hours later by Ruby who dies a few years later, taking all his secrets to the grave. That was probably the beginning of the end of any sanity in the USA.

As far as HEALTH CARE here's my solution - outsource it - beat the bastards at their own game. I'm ready to go anytime if needed.

BUMRUNGRAD INTERNATIONAL - World Class Expat Hospital in BANGKOK, THAILAND - Bypass surgery and kick ass vacation combined into one trip, now that's efficiency !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZyIx27jAwo
 
Dudester said:
BBWOLF, as usual, I DO agree with you. The problem is the day the "American people take it to the streets in droves" is the day I have U2 play a concert in my backyard for Labor Day - ain't gonna happen.

I argue otherwise, amigo. Things are bad in the USA and on a downward trajectory (I'm in the US for a few weeks). When conditions become bad enough, something like spontaneous combustion will occur -- as happened in France and Russia.
 
Shrug - I have a different take. Our biz is the US is picking up and clients are hiring. I'm not saying it's good by any means but we're pretty sure we've seen the bottom. Housing sales are up as well which is usually a pretty good indicator that the bottom has been hit.

The world is changing and I don't think the US is going to be the "only superpower" out there but I hardly think it's as dire as some people make it out to be.
 
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