Reasons to be sad

[LostinBA]

Rather than feeling sad, this thread has now put a smile on my face, even if I know absolutely zilch about warplanes, other than having seen a Spitfire and a Harrier up close

Me too! Who knew we had so many ex-fighter pilots and enthusiasts here. Nice change, interesting thread.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

the SU-30 Flankers operated by the IAF are extremely powerful aircraft and are designed to eat F-15s and F-18s for breakfast. You can see a small sample of what the Flanker can do here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2IDPSNrRaU

Yes, here is a great video of the Su-30's excellent ejection seat system in operation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh-kuztsE1s

The Flanker is a powerful aircraft and in the right hands (like any aircraft) is a serious foe. Anyone can buy an aircraft. It's the "right hands" part that is hard sometimes. I seem to remember reading about the IAF losing a couple of their Flankers in training exercises recently.

 

[che]

The Flanker is a powerful aircraft and in the right hands (like any aircraft) is a serious foe. Anyone can buy an aircraft. It's the "right hands" part that is hard sometimes...

The tool is only as good as the craftsman. True about most things...

 

[mrporoto]

typical yankees talking about combat,what happened to the poor argie people?don't think the taliban have planes but they are kicking yer arses out in arfgoonistan.

 

[camberiu]

The Flanker is a powerful aircraft and in the right hands (like any aircraft) is a serious foe. Anyone can buy an aircraft. It's the "right hands" part that is hard sometimes. I seem to remember reading about the IAF losing a couple of their Flankers in training exercises recently.

Absolutely. The skill of the pilot, and the overall effectiveness of the military behind it is a critical variable for any air conflict. No matter how good the plane is, if the military organization behind it is inept, the plane by itself will not make any difference.
In a hypothetical conflict between Venezuelan Flankers and Brazilian Mirage 2000, I would put money on the Brazilians. Despite the fact that on paper the Flanker is a much superior aircraft to the Mirage 2000, Brazilian pilots in general are much better trained and more professional than the politically appointed Venezuelan Air Force Pilots.

That being said, in terms of pure technical specs, the Flanker clearly outperforms any and all western designed 4th generation fighters. In the hands of competent pilots, the Flankers is absolutely devastating. During the Cope India exercises in 2005, the USAF pitted their F-15s against the SU-30MKI of the IAF. The results were shocking. The Flankers of IAF achieved a 9:1 kill ratio against the F-15. Afterwards even the USAF admitted that they got their "clocks cleaned" by the IAF.

Now, nobody knows how the Flanker would perform against a 5th generation fighter, like the F-35 or F-22. But in the 4th generation fighter world, the Flanker is the king of the hill.

 

[Gringoboy]

Maybe this needs it's own thread.........'Fighter planes through the ages'.
Certainly lifted the gloom for me that's for sure.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

Now, nobody knows how the Flanker would perform against a 5th generation fighter, like the F-35 or F-22. But in the 4th generation fighter world, the Flanker is the king of the hill.

Comparing the Su-30 and the F-15/ F/A-18 isn't comparing apples to apples. You'd need to compare it to something newer like the XF-41. Hornet and Eagle are both ancient. I was building (and then blowing up) Hornet models when I was in high school.

Slick

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

typical yankees talking about combat,what happened to the poor argie people?don't think the taliban have planes but they are kicking yer arses out in arfgoonistan.

Roger that, sir! Here's a nice video of us getting our arses kicked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1jD7v2ucBc

Thanks for asking.

 

[camberiu]

Comparing the Su-30 and the F-15/ F/A-18 isn't comparing apples to apples.
Slick

Well, the Flanker first flew in 1977, only 5 years after the F-15. The Hornet first flew in 1978. So we are talking about planes from the same era.

One can claim that the SU-30MKI is a much more up to date version of the original Flanker that first flew in '77. However, the same can be said about the F-15E, F-15SE and F-18E Super Hornet. And still, the current Flanker has a better radar, greater payload, greater thrust to weight ration, greater turn rate and climb rate than any of its modernized rivals. Let's not forget the vectored thrust capability, something that all its 4o generation US rivals lack.
So, I'd say it is a fair comparison . Don't feel bad dude, it is just to way life is. The Soviets had to build a better plane than the US at some point. I mean, you guys dominated all the previous generations of fighters with much superior designs. They had to get it right once.

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

The Soviets had to build a better plane than the US at some point. I mean, you guys dominated all the previous generations of fighters with much superior designs. They had to get it right once.

Ok. I was being nice, but you asked for it!

The deciding factor in any fight past the merge (point at which two aircraft begin actual dog fighting) is the pilot. You can draw two conclusions in this case - one is that two pilots of even fighting capabilities, understanding of the other aircraft's strengths and weaknesses, etc, will come to a draw in a dogfight between the Su-30 and the F-16 block 50/60, the F-15C, and the F/A-18 Super. The question here is getting the better-trained pilot. The other consideration is that having two sets of eyeballs in the cockpit is an advantage, especially in close. Most of the time, the Su-30 would have this advantage, unless up against a two-seat Hornet or Eagle.

Driving the Hornet was a full-time job close-in. The analogy I'd use is swinging a shovel at a mouse running around on the floor while you are getting attacked by a pit-bull. You have your hands full. I envied my Marine Hornet buds who had a GIB to keep watch on the back door. This advantage I'd give to the Su-30.

Yes, the Su-30 can do that really cool "cobra" maneuver at airshows. However, this is pretty useless in a real dogfight. If you do one of those you might get an opportunity shot at someone behind you but then you'll bleed off all of your energy and you get killed pretty quickly. Not to mention the aircraft stops turning and goes into a tangent on the original radius. This is the feedback I've gotten from guys who have actually fought the Su-30. The IAF pilots are quick to try to use their vectored thrust and then lose the energy management game.

We can get into BVR (beyond visual range), radars, missiles, fuel, thrust-to-weight and differently equipped aircraft will perform better or worse. However, it's hard to get home from the battlefield in one piece when someone has shot a AIM-9X at you (from a Hornet, Falcon, or Eagle).

I have fought Su-27's. In the wrong hands they got killed easily. In the right hands we came to a draw, 3 times and that was in an old C model. If I was challenged to a duel by an IAF pilot flying an Su-30 who was pissed that his girlfriend spent the weekend at my place I'd be happy to fly the Super Hornet.
I know how to get to the merge against an Su-30 and I know how to exploit it's disadvantages. It would sound like this:

whooooooomp ..... thump ....

"Oly jeeet, Raj! Ee's behind dus!"

Slick.