Recoleta . Zona Liberada - Entraderas

[nicoenarg]

nicoenarg,

I truly don't get what you think is the point. The places you cited do have a reason to believe they are safe...the USA does not. That was my exact point. It is sad that anyone living in the USA would imagine their daily existence to be as safe as Singapore or Switzerland. You make my point for me. My point was based on empirically available data. Based on that, a resident of Singapore saying, "I feel safe about crime" would be correct...relatively speaking. A resident of the USA would not. Hence the comment you ascribed to me so accurately. As for the Islamic states, your inference is what I wanted you to infer. Some would describe their law-enforcment practices as "barbaric", so would you want those laws in place to feel safer in BA? Is there a price to be paid for safety...often in terms of liberty? Excellent quote by Benjamin Franklin referencing both. One which USA residents should heed today. You seem confused about your own argument. But so long as you make it in a way to support mine...I am good with that.

You have a point? You're all over the place. You make no sense. You claimed the US is the only nation in the world with the "misguided notion" that "life is safe". And then you make a case for other countries to have that misguided notion.

You read into things in a way no one even intended them to be read. I want the rules applied in Islamic countries to be applied here? Well thanks for telling me because I didn't know that.

Talking to you is a moot point because you seem to be having a coversation with yourself.

It was funny when you told Iznogud that you were going to start writing here more often...I mean, I thank the admin for the ignore option. I'm done wasting my time on you...chau!

 

[Iznogud]

Iznogud,

Come on now...the ego stroke was good...but not a "legend" in my own mind...maybe just an interesting footnote. Pure humility prevents me from anything further. However, good observation on my limited posting to other threads. Two things to consider: 1) I tend to lurk, more than post...unless something truly erroneous is said (something to think about) and 2) Beware what you wish for, because I see more numerous posts possibly on the horizon, in various threads.

Your persistance in this particular thread tells me that it's close to your heart.
I can tell you that in 16 years you haven't seen nothing yet. I still remember having the phone lines tapped and while I thought / hoped that was a thing of the past, that my kids would only see in the movies, I can see that happening again in the near future as well. This is definitely not looking well.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Powers that be seem pretty much more interested in minding what the common citizens are up to that worrying how to make their life easier and more productive.

 

[earlyretirement]

earlyretirement,

Ok...now that was just a funny and witty comeback. Nothing else to say...lol.

Hey HGQ. I didn't see that you were spending 2-4 months at a time on your visits. Hey, if you've spent 20+ years coming to Buenos Aires from 2-4 month stints at a time that is quite a bit of time.

I'm certainly not knocking your time spent in Argentina and happy to hear you find it as safe as other developed places and really happy you've avoided problems there.

No one can take that away from you. But definitely I'd much rather be using my ipad or iphone in upscale parts of both Chicago and NYC or any other major city in the USA vs. upscale parts of Buenos Aires just as I do on many business trips to both cities.

I hope you continue to have safe trips to Buenos Aires. Honestly, I hope things improve there as I really love Argentina and go back to Buenos Aires often and I consider it a "second home" just as I'm sure other people on this forum do.

 

[ElQueso]

HGQ - I truly prefer experience more than I do the words of others. Optimistic or pessimistic.

It doesn't have to be my personal experience, but rather, results of things that happen to people I know personally, and that I can see evidence of, or have an implicit trust of those who are doing the reporting of personal experiences. Proof often helps in any case.

Like my older sister-in-law coming over crying because she just got robbed at knife-point for the 5th time, this time as she was going to RapiPago to pay her bills for the month. Or that she comes to our apartment to sleep now when she has to work real late (she's a chef) instead of going all the way to her apartment because two nights in a row recently she was hassled by the same three guys who were threatening to take her into a privado nearby and gang-rape her. Three nights ago, the second time, they chased her a short distance as she screamed and ran around the block and made it to a 24-hour kiosko that was open and had a couple of people standing outside chatting with clerk.

Or my brother-in-law who came over shaking and white one night, lifted his shirt and showed us where a couple of thieves, dressed in suits, stuck a knife in his ribs and stole his cellphone, Sube card and the little bit of money he had on him. Cut him pretty good. Shirt ruined with a hole and blood. He's been robbed multiple times as well, but that was the first time he had any actual injuries.

Both of those happened near Micro Centro.

Or the after-effects (bruising and swelling) that my older sister-in-law's best friend, who is also a chef and works with her, that I saw when she came over with my sister-in-law two days after her and her folks were assaulted in their own home by entraderos, beaten, tied up, and watched while the thieves took what they wanted and broke up a lot of the rest. This was in Flores.

Or a friend of mine who was walking down Callao wearing a nice watch (not brilliant, of course) in the middle of the day and got the watch ripped off his wrist by a couple of motochorros passing by, giving him a pretty good cut in the process.

Or an elder lady, maybe 70 years old, waking down Uruguay, approaching Paraguay, who had the purse ripped off her shoulder by a pair of motochorros who didn't even bother to slow down. The poor old lady literally was spun around two times by the force of the robbery and fell to the sidewalk, hitting her head on the pavement. Quit a bit of blood - head wounds bleed like the devil. I saw that one myself and was one of the many people who rushed to her to help.

Or the bruises on wrist arms and face that one of my wife's cousins showed us after claiming it was caused by a taxi driver in the wee hours one morning as he tried to rape her, telling her he didn't want her money for payment of the fare.

Or the 8 or so kids I saw under my balcony, lined up against the wall of our building by the police, guns and knives laid out in evidence bags on the back of a police cruiser. They sat there for a few hours and I thought the police were waiting for transport to take the gang to jail, but no - they were waiting for their parents to come pick them up, I found out later from our portero.

These are just some of the worst things I've seen or had knowledge of that I consider confirmed to me. There are countless stories from my family and friends of getting wallets, purses and personal items stolen on buses and subte and other places.

I know personally a cop who was a crime scene investigator and is now semi-retired, who toward the end of last year was stabbed repeatedly in the stomach and slashed in the throat by his neighbor, a kid who got pissed off because my buddy asked him to turn the music on his radio (he was listening to out front very loudly). Yeah, that can happen anywhere too, but my buddy has some serious stories to tell about police corruption and what often really goes on with the federal police in Argentina (well, BA at least).

You can go on about how the US is so dangerous, that's fine, you're entitled to your own opinion. You can show data that has been compiled by entities outside of this country that show that Buenos Aires is one of the safest places in South America (while I still don't understand how that makes it even safer than the US in general - unless you REALLY trust the numbers given out by most government in South America more than you do the US, but that's something you have to decide for yourself), but I have to ask to begin with where the entities that compiled that data got their numbers - did they come here and do their own survey and experience how life is, or did they use the numbers the government puts out?

At any rate, I really don't care. I've lived here continuously for more than 6 years. I've made 4 trips back to the States, but the last one was almost 5 years ago. I have never had a single robbery or plain assault perpetrated on myself (well, I was once assaulted by an idiot who ran into my car with his own and then tried to blame me for it, but that could happen anywhere, I'll grant you) in the time I've been here.

But I can't discard the facts that I've seen. Most of the incidents I've listed above took place in the last 18 months. Only one (the watch on Callao) took place a little over two years ago.

My life experience shows me BA is getting more dangerous. Even though, personally, I haven't really been hit by any of it.

My experience in the States? Mostly Texas as far as living goes, by I'm very widely traveled (both in the States and internationally). Living in various parts of Texas, including nice areas and downright slums. I've never seen even a small percentage of the crime I've seen here, over 40-some years, including direct personal experience or known occurrences of friends.

Of course, feel free to roam the streets of BA on those occasions you visit here, dressed in any manner you desire, carrying whatever expensive items with you that you may feel comfortable with. I don't want to see anything bad happen to anyone, but I can't help but think naivete gets an awful lot of people into trouble. Just a matter of time.

And by all means, take all of the precautions that most of us would take here, when you're in the States.

To each their own

Oh yeah - and it's hard to prove a negative (or lack of personal incidents in this case) by example - much easier to prove by the existence of incidents by example.

 

[HGQ2112]

You have a point? You're all over the place. You make no sense. You claimed the US is the only nation in the world with the "misguided notion" that "life is safe". And then you make a case for other countries to have that misguided notion.

You read into things in a way no one even intended them to be read. I want the rules applied in Islamic countries to be applied here? Well thanks for telling me because I didn't know that.

Talking to you is a moot point because you seem to be having a coversation with yourself.

It was funny when you told Iznogud that you were going to start writing here more often...I mean, I thank the admin for the ignore option. I'm done wasting my time on you...chau!

nicoenarg,

Precisely, I do not see what your confusion is. You keep placing the emphasis on the world "only"...my emphasis was on the word "misguided". Singapore, Switzerland, New Zealand, etc. believing their nations are safe...makes sense. The USA believing the same is...misguided. As in, "The USA is the only nation with the misguided belief it is safe". Most nations tend to believe their crime is much worse than the reality. A few nations seem to believe their crime is accurately low...Singapore, Switzerland...New Zealand. And then there is the USA, where the misguided notion of safety exists, when every statistical data documents it does not.

 

[HGQ2112]

Your persistance in this particular thread tells me that it's close to your heart.
I can tell you that in 16 years you haven't seen nothing yet. I still remember having the phone lines tapped and while I thought / hoped that was a thing of the past, that my kids would only see in the movies, I can see that happening again in the near future as well. This is definitely not looking well.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Powers that be seem pretty much more interested in minding what the common citizens are up to that worrying how to make their life easier and more productive.

Iznogud,

What you describe is unfortunate. Street crime and state crimes, while both crimes, are not in the same statistical model. Argentina has had some dark periods with the latter, such as the Junta years. However, keep in mind, the USA has had some dark periods, such as the stain of slavery, the attempts to suppress civil rights...and some less than stellar acts of curtailing liberties in place today. As an example, life at a USA airport is starting to more closely resemble time in a Gulag, more than the happy moments I remember from flying during my youth. No doubt...fully concede...Argentina has had some dark days in terms of government repression and criminal activity. However, even on this plateau, it does not deserve a mantle of ignominy somehow disproportionate to much of the rest of the world...including countries flying alleged flags of freedom.

 

[HGQ2112]

HGQ - I truly prefer experience more than I do the words of others. Optimistic or pessimistic.

It doesn't have to be my personal experience, but rather, results of things that happen to people I know personally, and that I can see evidence of, or have an implicit trust of those who are doing the reporting of personal experiences. Proof often helps in any case.

Like my older sister-in-law coming over crying because she just got robbed at knife-point for the 5th time, this time as she was going to RapiPago to pay her bills for the month. Or that she comes to our apartment to sleep now when she has to work real late (she's a chef) instead of going all the way to her apartment because two nights in a row recently she was hassled by the same three guys who were threatening to take her into a privado nearby and gang-rape her. Three nights ago, the second time, they chased her a short distance as she screamed and ran around the block and made it to a 24-hour kiosko that was open and had a couple of people standing outside chatting with clerk.

Or my brother-in-law who came over shaking and white one night, lifted his shirt and showed us where a couple of thieves, dressed in suits, stuck a knife in his ribs and stole his cellphone, Sube card and the little bit of money he had on him. Cut him pretty good. Shirt ruined with a hole and blood. He's been robbed multiple times as well, but that was the first time he had any actual injuries.

Both of those happened near Micro Centro.

Or the after-effects (bruising and swelling) that my older sister-in-law's best friend, who is also a chef and works with her, that I saw when she came over with my sister-in-law two days after her and her folks were assaulted in their own home by entraderos, beaten, tied up, and watched while the thieves took what they wanted and broke up a lot of the rest. This was in Flores.

Or a friend of mine who was walking down Callao wearing a nice watch (not brilliant, of course) in the middle of the day and got the watch ripped off his wrist by a couple of motochorros passing by, giving him a pretty good cut in the process.

Or an elder lady, maybe 70 years old, waking down Uruguay, approaching Paraguay, who had the purse ripped off her shoulder by a pair of motochorros who didn't even bother to slow down. The poor old lady literally was spun around two times by the force of the robbery and fell to the sidewalk, hitting her head on the pavement. Quit a bit of blood - head wounds bleed like the devil. I saw that one myself and was one of the many people who rushed to her to help.

Or the bruises on wrist arms and face that one of my wife's cousins showed us after claiming it was caused by a taxi driver in the wee hours one morning as he tried to rape her, telling her he didn't want her money for payment of the fare.

Or the 8 or so kids I saw under my balcony, lined up against the wall of our building by the police, guns and knives laid out in evidence bags on the back of a police cruiser. They sat there for a few hours and I thought the police were waiting for transport to take the gang to jail, but no - they were waiting for their parents to come pick them up, I found out later from our portero.

These are just some of the worst things I've seen or had knowledge of that I consider confirmed to me. There are countless stories from my family and friends of getting wallets, purses and personal items stolen on buses and subte and other places.

I know personally a cop who was a crime scene investigator and is now semi-retired, who toward the end of last year was stabbed repeatedly in the stomach and slashed in the throat by his neighbor, a kid who got pissed off because my buddy asked him to turn the music on his radio (he was listening to out front very loudly). Yeah, that can happen anywhere too, but my buddy has some serious stories to tell about police corruption and what often really goes on with the federal police in Argentina (well, BA at least).

You can go on about how the US is so dangerous, that's fine, you're entitled to your own opinion. You can show data that has been compiled by entities outside of this country that show that Buenos Aires is one of the safest places in South America (while I still don't understand how that makes it even safer than the US in general - unless you REALLY trust the numbers given out by most government in South America more than you do the US, but that's something you have to decide for yourself), but I have to ask to begin with where the entities that compiled that data got their numbers - did they come here and do their own survey and experience how life is, or did they use the numbers the government puts out?

At any rate, I really don't care. I've lived here continuously for more than 6 years. I've made 4 trips back to the States, but the last one was almost 5 years ago. I have never had a single robbery or plain assault perpetrated on myself (well, I was once assaulted by an idiot who ran into my car with his own and then tried to blame me for it, but that could happen anywhere, I'll grant you) in the time I've been here.

But I can't discard the facts that I've seen. Most of the incidents I've listed above took place in the last 18 months. Only one (the watch on Callao) took place a little over two years ago.

My life experience shows me BA is getting more dangerous. Even though, personally, I haven't really been hit by any of it.

My experience in the States? Mostly Texas as far as living goes, by I'm very widely traveled (both in the States and internationally). Living in various parts of Texas, including nice areas and downright slums. I've never seen even a small percentage of the crime I've seen here, over 40-some years, including direct personal experience or known occurrences of friends.

Of course, feel free to roam the streets of BA on those occasions you visit here, dressed in any manner you desire, carrying whatever expensive items with you that you may feel comfortable with. I don't want to see anything bad happen to anyone, but I can't help but think naivete gets an awful lot of people into trouble. Just a matter of time.

And by all means, take all of the precautions that most of us would take here, when you're in the States.

To each their own

Oh yeah - and it's hard to prove a negative (or lack of personal incidents in this case) by example - much easier to prove by the existence of incidents by example.

El Queso,

I took the accounts as those personally witnessed by you. If I had encountered the same, BA or anywhere, I certainly would question my continued ability to relate to, or rely on empirical data. I am a big believer in never say "never". I have already conceded, way early in this thread, that the impact of personal perception is very real in psychological terms. I would like to believe that I could overcome those personal experiences, with a reliance on statistical data, knowing that my world, immense as it is to my person, is only a microscopic whisper relative to what goes on in my city, country or world. However, I do not know that I would succeed in overcoming. I truly believe that given what I witnessed growing up in Chicago, yet still feeling somehow "relatively safe", shows that capacity in me. Still, I was younger, brasher...maybe less reliant on comfort in statistical data than in some undocumented perverse optimism. Hard to say, reflecting in that rear view mirror. What I can say is that I am sorry for what you've witnessed and experienced. And if your current beliefs help keep you safe(r), then all the better.

 

[Iznogud]

Dude, I keep checking the title of this thread and it still claiming this is all about Recoleta and crime.

I can sympathise with the Arab Spring if you want but it still doesn't make it the subject of this thread.
Some of us must deal what might be waiting for our families or ourselves behind the door.
Put whatever experiences in life you had or plan to have in future reincarnations where they belong and do what you need to do to stay on topic.
For years I studied situational awareness and related topics, but I did it as a personal pet subject of mine, certainly not plannig to use or need it as a survival skill just to step outside or even be at home.
Unless you insist that I should compare my current situation with Lebanon in the 70's/80's to make it look real safe , I rather compare it to what I've experienced in the past 10 years and I can tell you this is not what I signed for. And my worries are growing...

 

[HGQ2112]

Iznogud,

Relative to observations that the Recoleta has become less safe, agreed. Relative to the already stated comments about, I am packing my bags and heading to "X", I merely commented that "X" might be the fire, to BA's/Recoleta's frying pan. Then...boom...all this...lol. So, if you limit the statement to, I now live in the Recoleta and I feel less safe than 10 years ago...5 years ago...I have little to say. If you add to that, "So I am packing up my bags and heading to Kathmandu"...I still have little to say. If you start to suggest, "So I am packing my bags and I am going back to the USA, Lebanon, or Syria"...well, I am likely to comment, if nothing else for the sake of comparative perspective. That comparative perspective isn't so much for the ones committed to staying behind in BA, as to those considering leaving for the vagaries of "greener pastures". That distinction is just not complicated enough that it should get somehow lost.

 

[Iznogud]

Once the observation has been volunteered and in several cases rejected what's the point in arguing any further?

Rethorical question.