Richard Stallman, founder of the FSF, robbed in Argentina

[camberiu]

We were horrified by upper class Argentina, they are now in a "normal" school and we are far happier.

That is interesting, because at least on this forum, sometimes you come of as very pretentious and elitist. You often mention that you went to Princeton. Let's not forget the "nobel prize winner thinks differently" comment on another thread and the fact that you dismissed Michael Shedlock and Peter Schiff as economists because they were not famous and did not come from elite schools.

Maybe it is just the impersonality of the Internet that makes me perceive you this way. Maybe you are a very humble and unassuming guy in real life. But at least here, that is not the vibe I get.

 

[expatinowncountry]

Of course it is debatable. Prestige by definition is a subjective concept. Anyone can win a pissing contest by changing the variables used to measure the "winner". Because that is all it is, a pissing contest. People with low self esteem or self worth trying to find ways to increase the perceived value of the piece of paper they got from their alma mater. Because if they can convince themselves or others that their school is more "prestigious", somehow this will make them better professionals or even better people.

On rankings published by X, Y or Z UnB and UNICAMP always came out ahead of UBA. I work on the technology field for a very large and important high tech company, and there, candidates coming from UnB and UNICAMP have higher status than UBA. Does that mean that UNICAMP or UnB are better than UBA? In my eyes, no. It is just that the general perception for whatever reason, has placed those schools in higher regard today. That might change tomorrow, next week or next month. It all depends on how each school can play with the variables of the "pissing contest".

To be frank, I find this whole concept of "elite" university pure bullshit. I attended elite universities in Brazil and I work with people for the top universities in the world on a day-to-day basis (some report to me) and I found no evidence that people from elite schools are smarter, harder working, better professionals or overall better human beings than anyone else. People go to those schools and come out thinking that their fart no longer stinks. Then they go around playing God by starting wars in SouthEast Asia (Robert Mcnamara), bombing Cambodia (Kissinger), creating a policy of shock and awe in Iraq (Rumsfeld) and legalizing torture (Ashcroft).
BTW, how about using those guys above and people like them as a way to measure the "prestige" of certain universities?

Since we are at it, where did "Che" Guevara go to school again?

Thanks but this is not the issue in debate here. I am sorry you took the time to google all those people but I am not interested in ranking UBA vis-avis other Brazilian Universities. That's was your idea. I agree with you, ranks are misleading and like you I have met people in life of all qualities (intellectual, human, etc) from very different educational backgrounds. My first point is that el_expatriado is talking nonsenses and he is been unfair with UBA. And my second point is that you are giving opinions about UBA based on preconceptions, not facts or own experience.

 

[expatinowncountry]

That is interesting, because at least on this forum, sometimes you come of as very pretentious and elitist. You often mention that you went to Princeton. Let's not forget the "nobel prize winner thinks differently" comment on another thread and the fact that you dismissed Michael Shedlock and Peter Schiff as economists because they were not famous and did not come from elite schools.

Maybe it is just the impersonality of the Internet that makes me perceive you this way. Maybe you are a very humble and unassuming guy in real life. But at least here, that is not the vibe I get.

Does it really matter if I am elitist or pretentious when the effort should be on the argumentation and not on the personal qualities of the person who is posting the argument?

I live in Chacarita, take the metro to go to work and when I am not in Buenos Aires (or France) I live in a shanty town in Accra, Ghana where I do not have tap water most of the time. I am a development economist... hard to be elitist in this field.

 

[camberiu]

Thanks but this is not the issue in debate here. I am sorry you took the time to google all those people but I am not interested in ranking UBA vis-avis other Brazilian Universities. That's was your idea. I agree with you, ranks are misleading.

Let's look at some past messages, shall we? When counter arguing the statement that UBA was a nest of communists, permastudents and etc... you decided to write the following:

UBA produced several nobel prize winners in sciences (not the peace one that everyone gets) what for a developing country public university is not that bad (how many nobel prizes in science public universities in Brazil or Mexico have produced? how many Di Tella, San Andres, UCA, etc?).

Obviously you based your argument that UBA could not be a nest of communnists since it had more nobel prize winners than any mexican, brazilian or even private argentinian universities.
My counter argument was that I went to school on both UnB and UNICAMP, universities that are "subjectively" more prestigious than UBA and objectively much more technical, since EMBRAER (aircraft), AVIBRAS(missiles) and MECTRON (missiles&smart bombs), the only true aerospace companies in LATAM came from those schools. Not mentioning the most advanced companies in biotech, nanotech, software and robotics in all of LATAM came from those schools. Yet, despite all of this, that does not change the fact that both UnB and UNICAMP are, by my own experience, nests of communists, piqueteiros and perma students. That being the case, I find hard to believe that UBA is any different, and your argument of nobel prize winners does not seem very convincing to me. Granted, I have never been there. But I have witnessed many protests composed by UBA students and the types I saw very very similar to ht typical communist/piqueteiro/perma student that plagued both UnB and UNICAMP back in my day.

In regards of raking Argentina universities versus brazilian universities, it was you who for some reason decided to comment on the following:

Well whether they are more prestigious is something debatable, take number of nobel prize winners in hard science as an indicator and they are not. My Brazilian classmates at Princeton were from PUC, USP or Fundaco Getulio Vargas, none from your prestigious Universities.

I only pointed out that your criteria of using nobel prize winners as a "prestige stick" is just as arbitrary as mine picking famous assholes from Ivy League schools.

The crux of the matter is: UBA may or may not be a nest of commies, piqueteiros or perma students. But is not number of nobel prize winners it generated or its ranking according to publication X, Y or Z that is evidence of it being or not being a pit of left wing extremists.

 

[walkingtwig]

think it is just general conference thing.. i went to a three day conference at a children's hospital and the same trick was used on two people atending on the very first day (also car licence plates were solen... random). it is a pretty well known con i guess.

 

[expatinowncountry]

Let's look at some past messages, shall we? When counter arguing the statement that UBA was a nest of communists, permastudents and etc... you decided to write the following:



Obviously you based your argument that UBA could not be a nest of communnists since it had more nobel prize winners than any mexican, brazilian or even private argentinian universities.
My counter argument was that I went to school on both UnB and UNICAMP, universities that are "subjectively" more prestigious than UBA and objectively much more technical, since EMBRAER (aircraft), AVIBRAS(missiles) and MECTRON (missiles&smart bombs), the only true aerospace companies in LATAM came from those schools. Not mentioning the most advanced companies in biotech, nanotech, software and robotics in all of LATAM came from those schools. Yet, despite all of this, that does not change the fact that both UnB and UNICAMP are, by my own experience, nests of communists, piqueteiros and perma students. That being the case, I find hard to believe that UBA is any different, and your argument of nobel prize winners does not seem very convincing to me. Granted, I have never been there. But I have witnessed many protests composed by UBA students and the types I saw very very similar to ht typical communist/piqueteiro/perma student that plagued both UnB and UNICAMP back in my day.

In regards of raking Argentina universities versus brazilian universities, it was you who for some reason decided to comment on the following:


I only pointed out that your criteria of using nobel prize winners as a "prestige stick" is just as arbitrary as mine picking famous assholes from Ivy League schools.

The crux of the matter is: UBA may or may not be a nest of commies, piqueteiros or perma students. But is not number of nobel prize winners it generated or its ranking according to publication X, Y or Z that is evidence of it being or not being a pit of left wing extremists.

You are not understanding me. I agree with you in everything but on the issue of UBA been a nest of communist, permastudents, etc. With all due respect, I think you jumped the wagon too quickly there.

The argument of the nobel prizes winners was not about the rankings neither about the nest of communist thing (BTW you copied and pasted only one part of the conversation, you take me out of context) but about the comment of el_expatriado saying that UBA was good for nothing. He said that no one would send their kids to UBA (like nowadays you send your kids to college anyway... they do what they want!) if they can afford a private university. So my argument is that the place cannot be that bad if from time to time they can get a nobel prize in science. Of course, there are other criteria to measure the quality of an university (research output) and nobel prize winners are more outliers than average students. The example of Mexico and/or Brazil (and I was student in Mexico) is to put things in context for el_expatriado... UBA is a public university in a developing country and in that league does not do that bad. UBA does not deserve the aggravating and unfair concepts of el_expatriado. Yes UBA is a very bad place if you compare it to Stanford to say something... or even University of North Dakota if you find Stanford too elitist. It is like people in this forum saying the El Teatro Colon is bad cause you cannot compare it to the MET or The Royal Ballet...

El_expatriado, NOT me, seems to have infer that been a nest of communist makes the place bad for education. I totally agree with you that there is no relationship between communism and ranking/quality of university. Communist countries gave humanity a lot of nobel prize winners and help developed science. Of course, the US gave far more.

So we agree in the issue and believe me I did not meant to rank or aggravate Brazilian Universities at all. Please do not take me out of context. It does not help the argumentation.

 

[el_expatriado]

El_expatriado, NOT me, seems to have infer that been a nest of communist makes the place bad for education. I totally agree with you that there is no relationship between communism and ranking/quality of university. Communist countries gave humanity a lot of nobel prize winners and help developed science. Of course, the US gave far more.

Once the communists infiltrate a university (or any organization really) it is very difficult to turn things around. Communists are very dangerous and destructive. The only thing they were every good for is tearing things down and living off the work of others.

You'll find that in the UBA all the communists are studying humanities, economics, law, etc. You won't find any communists studying the hard sciences, engineering, computer science, mathematics, etc. And while they are in the UBA the communists spend all their time building their personal spaces of power, trying to get control over some university budget for this or that, protesting for more funds, doing sit-ins to prevent democratically elected university officials from taking their jobs, and generally causing trouble for the rest of the students who are there for an education, not for politics.

The UBA is training generation after generation of leeches who live off of the UBA while they are there and they'll keep living off the rest of us once they graduate either by working as government employees, or as lawyers generating lawsuits against productive members of society, or as economists who spend all day thinking of new taxes to thrust upon the citizenry.

What you won't find are any communists who graduate from the UBA ready to actually contribute something to society or build something. They are leeches and takers, never givers. They are so ingrained into the UBA by now it is impossible to get them out. The only way to get rid of them would be to start charging tuition. Once they actually have to pay something that means they might have to actually work for a living to support their studies and since we know they are afraid of work they'd scatter off somewhere else and build their nests elsewhere.

 

[mariposa]

Once the communists infiltrate a university (or any organization really) it is very difficult to turn things around. Communists are very dangerous and destructive. The only thing they were every good for is tearing things down and living off the work of others.

You'll find that in the UBA all the communists are studying humanities, economics, law, etc. You won't find any communists studying the hard sciences, engineering, computer science, mathematics, etc. And while they are in the UBA the communists spend all their time building their personal spaces of power, trying to get control over some university budget for this or that, protesting for more funds, doing sit-ins to prevent democratically elected university officials from taking their jobs, and generally causing trouble for the rest of the students who are there for an education, not for politics.

The UBA is training generation after generation of leeches who live off of the UBA while they are there and they'll keep living off the rest of us once they graduate either by working as government employees, or as lawyers generating lawsuits against productive members of society, or as economists who spend all day thinking of new taxes to thrust upon the citizenry.

What you won't find are any communists who graduate from the UBA ready to actually contribute something to society or build something. They are leeches and takers, never givers. They are so ingrained into the UBA by now it is impossible to get them out. The only way to get rid of them would be to start charging tuition. Once they actually have to pay something that means they might have to actually work for a living to support their studies and since we know they are afraid of work they'd scatter off somewhere else and build their nests elsewhere.

maybe you should get some professional help.

 

[el_expatriado]

maybe you should get some professional help.

I'm doing just fine, thank you very much.

 

[sleslie23]

... spend all their time building their personal spaces of power, trying to get control over some university budget for this or that, protesting for more funds ....

I'm not going to respond to your irrational rants about UBA, but this particular comment stood out. This is a perfect description of ALL academics in US universities - from philosophy to business to engineering. If that is your problem with UBA, then my guess is you didn't study in the US. And certainly did NOT study an advanced degree.