Shame on you Argentina

[ssr]

Now I know what your getting at. I can now see where you are coming from, what your point of view is, where your going with this whole thing, etc. I've heard this all before & there is no point me continuing my discussion with you. That's all. But it was fun while it lasted!

Seems more like you're jumping to conclusions, mini. Matt84 is making some excellent points and seems pretty damn well-informed. Been an interesting read, this thread.

 

[mini]

Seems more like you're jumping to conclusions, mini. Matt84 is making some excellent points and seems pretty damn well-informed. Been an interesting read, this thread.

Sure. I agree. But I know where the argument goes when we hit the "Muslims are ruining Europe" thing. So, I'm out. I'll read. But I'm not going to continue the discussion.

 

[Matt84]

I am extremely offended by the following comment. I know it's a misunderstanding, and I have no interest in knowing whether Mini wants to continue the discussion or not, but still I can't let this pass without clarifying.

Sure. I agree. But I know where the argument goes when we hit the "Muslims are ruining Europe" thing. So, I'm out. I'll read. But I'm not going to continue the discussion.

First of all I never said that, specially because Europe - while lovely - is already ruined, it happened in 1914 and it never bumped back. In any case I implied that Europe is letting itself being destroyed by another flirting with totalitarianism (be it Sharia Law or Political Correctness)- It's not such an outrageous comment taking into account that Europe, including my homeland, has self-destructed during the last World War.

I went so far as to make the point that Islam is not the problem but the philosophy and policies of a country:
Again: Muslims are integral normal average, if not typically rather successful, members of society in the US, In Brazil, and for certain here in Argentina.

On a side note you can buy the best inexpensive shawarma and kipes on Charcas in between Araoz and Scalabrini Ortiz. If you want to eat it with beer the owner encourages you to buy it in the kiosk of the corner and feel free to bring it to the table. He'd even provide glasses. What a fantastic example of the distinction between private and public life, another wonder of Western Civilization.

Europe may be Western, but it's still Old World and has a lot of baggage to deal with....

Now, everybody just see what happened here:

During an argument I mention Islam as one of many examples I use to make points. But I forgot that Islam is a no-no: if you mention it without praising it, you're automatically tagged as a some sort of extremist: or rather as an Antisocial who doesn't follow the PC Rules - who defies censorship.
The result is that people just reserve the comments on the topic and one of the two most dangerous political philosophies of this centuries is given a free pass from criticism.

Before WWII Fascist thugs were given a free pass because they served a short term pragmatical purpose. It didn't go well...

 

[mini]

I am extremely offended by the following comment. I know it's a misunderstanding, and I have no interest in knowing whether Mini wants to continue the discussion or not, but still I can't let this pass without clarifying.

First of all I never said that, specially because Europe - while lovely - is already ruined, it happened in 1914 and it never bumped back. In any case I implied that Europe is letting itself being destroyed by another flirting with totalitarianism (be it Sharia Law or Political Correctness)- It's not such an outrageous comment taking into account that Europe, including my homeland, has self-destructed during the last World War.

I went so far as to make the point that Islam is not the problem but the philosophy and policies of a country:
Again: Muslims are integral normal average, if not typically rather successful, members of society in the US, In Brazil, and for certain here in Argentina.

On a side note you can buy the best inexpensive shawarma and kipes on Charcas in between Araoz and Scalabrini Ortiz. If you want to eat it with beer the owner encourages you to buy it in the kiosk of the corner and feel free to bring it to the table. He'd even provide glasses. What a fantastic example of the distinction between private and public life, another wonder of Western Civilization.

Europe may be Western, but it's still Old World and has a lot of baggage to deal with....

Now, everybody just see what happened here:

During an argument I mention Islam as one of many examples I use to make points. But I forgot that Islam is a no-no: if you mention it without praising it, you're automatically tagged as a some sort of extremist: or rather as an Antisocial who doesn't follow the PC Rules - who defies censorship.
The result is that people just reserve the comments on the topic and one of the two most dangerous political philosophies of this centuries is given a free pass from criticism.

Before WWII Fascist thugs were given a free pass because they served a short term pragmatical purpose. It didn't go well...

Although I find your posts quite interesting, your conclusions are ones which, of course you won't be surprised, I completely disagree with. You will not bring me around to your thinking & I have no interest in trying to influence your thinking. However, I am in no way offended that you disagree with me. If you are convinced of your opinion and conclusions then I have no idea why you would be offended by someone not agreeing with you.

Please show me where I said Islam was a no-no? You won't find it and you won't find where I said that Islam should be praised (or not praised).

So when you say " Now, everybody just see what happened here" your conclusion is false.
Just as what you have said in your previous post shows to me how little you really understand of the underlying issues. I believe, based upon your comments, that you are lacking too much information to be able to reach a conclusion.

So, that leaves us with nothing left to say.

 

[Matt84]

I was offended because you pretended you knew "where I come from" and so on, finalizing with your implicit (?) accusation of bigotry. If you read carefully my posts you'll find that's the opposite of the case.

I consider this done with. -

PD: I am not convinced of my opinions, I think out loud, which helps me think and reach new conclusions and so on. I do have principles but those are by nature too abstract. The only political principle is the one that all interaction between individuals, between people, should be on a strictly voluntary consensual basis. I don't know if you agree with that or not.

I like the original purpose of the thread though, maybe it can be revived.

 

[Denver]

I have lived in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Faeroe Islands, Canada, EE. UU., Australia and Argentina.

My knowledge of Scandinavia being particularly intimate; I can attest to the fact the recent immigrants (refugees and/or asylum seekers) by and large have not integrated into the society and show no tendencies of doing so.

These groups are typically characterized by high crime rates, poor language skills (of the host country's language) and high unemployment.

Being as it is impossible to discuss this matter without having insults hurled at one, I will leave it up to each individual to think about why this is.

However; one should remember this: It is in their own power to change this and improve the lives or themselves and thus those of their hosts, but it has not happened.

Neil

 

[mini]

I was offended because you pretended you knew "where I come from" and so on, finalizing with your implicit (?) accusation of bigotry. If you read carefully my posts you'll find that's the opposite of the case.

If you see an implication of bigotry that says more about you. When I said I know where you are coming from I meant from a political spectrum/angle. I've seen your arguments made before. You are the only one who has brought race/ethnicity to this discussion, no one else.

I have lived in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Faeroe Islands, Canada, EE. UU., Australia and Argentina.

My knowledge of Scandinavia being particularly intimate; I can attest to the fact the recent immigrants (refugees and/or asylum seekers) by and large have not integrated into the society and show no tendencies of doing so.

These groups are typically characterized by high crime rates, poor language skills (of the host country's language) and high unemployment.

Being as it is impossible to discuss this matter without having insults hurled at one, I will leave it up to each individual to think about why this is.

However; one should remember this: It is in their own power to change this and improve the lives or themselves and thus those of their hosts, but it has not happened.

Neil

There certainly are problems which I do not deny. However they have to do with a whole host of factors not only their religion that are the root of the problems.

I also don't want to continue down this road. But I did want to point out that this issue is much more nuanced that Matt has portrayed it.

 

[Matt84]

If you see an implication of bigotry that says more about you. When I said I know where you are coming from I meant from a political spectrum/angle.

Yes, I know, and I was offended that you took me as a Right-winger with a mummified mindset. The truth is that Right wingers hate me as much as Left wingers, and I'm not sure myself of the Libertarian scene. So I became offended that you'd put me in a box.


I've seen your arguments made before. You are the only one who has brought race/ethnicity to this discussion, no one else.

if you noticed, my point was that the more ethnic diversity the merrier (or freeer). Not per se: I think that the time that population migrates defines a country, and we were trying to compare Argentina with the US and the rest of the World.
My Scandinavian/Koran point was that if you have a welfare/warfare state, it will crack (maybe for good?!) when some freedoms are introduced. In Sweden's case the freedom to immigrate easily coupled with huge gov benefits.

ok- now that's it, this is turning Godwin's Law.