Shame on you Argentina

[mini]

Sweden: I am looking at the study I mentioned, it is really eyes opening and non tendentious whatsoever.

Mini: yes many companies, 95% of them founded before the social reforms of the 40s and 50s. Once all these companies were well established, the private sector, the labor movements, and the state joined forces to have a sweet welfare state. But remember that the first newspaper in History was first edited in Malmö (can't do the circular accent on the o!), meaning that Sweden has a tradition of freedom of consciousness. Once that tradition is established and for so long, they are able to be a little materialistic because the Swedes are already law-abiding, human sanctity abiding people, like most Skandinavians after they went trhough their pirate phase, wink wink.
Now back to the companies: What could be a better deal than to start a corporation under a free market, grow it until you can easily crush the competence and THEN, let the government enact so many regulations and 50% taxes making the rise of a new competitor almost impossible?
There's a funny saying about that:
"In America the middle class is Democrat, the upper class is Republican, and the millionaires are Communist"

Skype, Pïratebay, even Ikea I believe is new but I don't know, are not the exceptions that prove the rule, but just testimony that Sweden even with its taxes, its lack of corruption still makes it a free country.

I would think the people who work for these companies would have to be pretty innovate, competitive & entrepreneurial and developing products that people want to get the companies to be such huge players on the world market.

Do you know anything about the biotech industry in Sweden? It's pretty dynamic at the moment. And these companies are being started right now. You can't just dismiss Skype/Kazaa, spotify, Mysql & Piratebay. And these are the ones we, outside of Sweden, know about. I personally doubt that these are just flukes and everyone else in Sweden is in a coma. And we haven't even gotten into Swedish design...

I, like Orwellian, don't understand your analogy to Sweden. One friend told you something & that's what you go with? Don't forget for every study there is a counter study.

 

[Matt84]

well I must admit I do get a kick of practicing my ranting skills, so what the heck! let's go on.

What you mean everything is black and white with me? Can you elaborate please?

I'm sorry that was grossly unfair on my side. I don't know you, I can't make such an assessment.

Every country exists due to migration, after all, as far as we know we all originated from Africa. Exodus from the Old Testament is incredibly symbolic.
But not all lands have experienced recent (last 1000 years I mean) immigration to the same scale. And that has shaped those lands into different nations.

As I pointed out over and over, North Korea*, and Good Korea and Japan are the most heterogeneous and innately racist (not malevolently, traditionally) Nations on Earth. Scandinavians are not famous for their racism (if one forgets the Laponians) but they are still some of the most heterogeneous nations on earth.

One could say that most of the Old World (Africa, Asia and non-metropolitan Europe including all Russia) is pretty ethnically heterogeneous compared to the New World (Americas, Oceania). But there is only One country in the whole new world, that first declared its National Identity, not by Ethnicity, but by Philosophy. Not by who your ancestors were, or what imaginary color is your blood, but by the content of your character.

That is what the American Founding Fathers, Rev. Martin Luther King, and Lady Margaret Thatcher all understood so well.

I think that America is not a freaking utopia, (in not being it lies its strength), but any intellectually honest man has to admit it's a happy exception in the history of the World, so far.

I meant that you might see things in only two dimensions because I couldn't express myself better and make the point that Sweden is able to sustain its Welfare Democracy because of its Institutions and Lack of Corruption resulting of basically a very extended family. Many immigrants, Chileans are a good example, were able to incorporate in perfect harmony benefiting both parties, but it was luck; Chileans were willing to learn Swedish. Ergo when mass immigration that refuses to learn the language and pledges allegiance first to their god and then in a clear conflict of interests to their adoptive secular ultra-liberal home, the welfare system cracks.
Muslims are so much more successful in places like the USA or Brazil, Argentina, because both are semi-free markets. The states used to be Capitalist, and Brazil and Argentina's social policies are only a charade, so in practice they are free markets or black markets. In such a context, islam ceases to be a social problem, and passes to be a private affair.
But remember that such distinction between private and public is characteristic to the West, Brazil. Argentina and the USA included; as well as Sweden.

So when you see in Rosengard Swedish teachers learning and dictating class in arab because the pupils wont learn Swedish, or personal translators, all of it paid for by the rest of the people... then the welfare system ceases to be a national safety net and it becomes self-destructive.


*

If this interests anyone, I make the distinction between the Koreas, because North Korea, The Workers' Paradise, is a clear cut example of National Socialism, German style, in this day and age: Their Socialist doctrine: Juche is explicitly designed ONLY for Korean people. Juche is to Kim Il-Sung, what Dianetics is to L. Ron Hubbard. (I could go on and compare Clearwater, Fl with Pyongyang but now I have drunk a 450 quilmes can so...). North Koreans wont try to convert you, they know Nazism is their thing; they just want to anschluss the ethnically pure peninsula

Sweden has always had immigration, like any country. Contemporary immigration is no different. So please also elaborate what is so special about Swedish immigration right now, and why it's so bad.
And really, I didn't understand a word of that last quote, that is why I thought you were drunk when you wrote it (and also because of the time). *no offense*

Well I wasn't drunk when I wrote it. I'm mildly drunk now. Mildly.

 

[Matt84]

I would think the people who work for these companies would have to be pretty innovate, competitive & entrepreneurial and developing products that people want to get the companies to be such huge players on the world market.

Do you know anything about the biotech industry in Sweden? It's pretty dynamic at the moment. And these companies are being started right now. You can't just dismiss Skype/Kazaa, spotify, Mysql & Piratebay. And these are the ones we, outside of Sweden, know about. I personally doubt that these are just flukes and everyone else in Sweden is in a coma. And we haven't even gotten into Swedish design...

I, like Orwellian, don't understand your analogy to Sweden. One friend told you something & that's what you go with? Don't forget for every study there is a counter study.

Good points. It helps me clarify.

The main reason I bring Sweden to the table is because it's the typical example of the successful welfare state - and I try to explain that Sweden has pre-existing conditions that enabled it to achieve that. Also, and most importantly I just look at the average numbers (there are no counter studies to them) and I see that, behind the aforementioned Asian nations, the Scandinavian countries are indeed some of the most ethnically heterogeneous countries in the world. I suspect, as so did Milton Friedman, that the inevitable cohesion this brings to a relatively small country is an outside factor.
You can't extrapolate Sweden's apparent success to the Americas.
I say apparent because, while i have more than a couple of Swedish friends, half of them immigrants or half swedes, and I generally admire the country, I honestly don't know what's going to happen when the muslim immigrants outnumber all the rest.
If the situation has changed, immigrants are learning the language, and ambulances don't need to be escorted by police cars each time they enter a muslim neighborhood, just inform me. I'll be glad to hear such good news.

 

[Matt84]

Look at this map with grain of salt:

Look that the red countries are almost in every case a collection of "tribe ethnicities" that actually have a lot more in common in the global context. You don't find a japanese, a native american, an african and a european at the same time city in none of those countries, but you do in Sao Paulo, Los Angeles and New York.

It's interesting to note however that the least diverse countries in the Americas are according to that map, Costa Rica, Paraguay (guarani), Uruguay and Argentina.

maybe that can steer the thread back to its useful original purpose.

 

[orwellian]

@Matt84
The success of Scandinavian countries can be found in Social Democracy, (or social fascism like Stalin dubbed it). And that can be applied anywhere, all you need is political will.
When it comes to Muslims you seem like any other Muslim basher. You make some statements how Muslims aren't integrated in Sweden without offering any piece of evidence to support it. You mention Rosengård, which is the closest Sweden has to a ghetto. When I say closest, I mean it's not really a ghetto, just a poor area that was built for the Swedish working class in the sixties.
And did your friend tell you that they don't teach Swedish in schools there? Immigrants in Sweden are offered hemspråk, in which they are taught their own language for a few hours a week. The rest of the education is taught in Swedish.
And most Chileans in Sweden didn't come as immigrants, they came on asylum visas fleeing from a horrible dictatorship.

 

[mini]

Good points. It helps me clarify.

The main reason I bring Sweden to the table is because it's the typical example of the successful welfare state - and I try to explain that Sweden has pre-existing conditions that enabled it to achieve that. Also, and most importantly I just look at the average numbers (there are no counter studies to them) and I see that, behind the aforementioned Asian nations, the Scandinavian countries are indeed some of the most ethnically heterogeneous countries in the world. I suspect, as so did Milton Friedman, that the inevitable cohesion this brings to a relatively small country is an outside factor.
You can't extrapolate Sweden's apparent success to the Americas.
I say apparent because, while i have more than a couple of Swedish friends, half of them immigrants or half swedes, and I generally admire the country, I honestly don't know what's going to happen when the muslim immigrants outnumber all the rest.
If the situation has changed, immigrants are learning the language, and ambulances don't need to be escorted by police cars each time they enter a muslim neighborhood, just inform me. I'll be glad to hear such good news.

Ah. I see so the truth is coming out in the wash.

 

[HotYogaTeacher]

I've read that 100 years ago Argentina and the US were, per capita, at about the same place, but the US made education a priority for ALL citizens and that catapulted America into it's current super power status while in Argentina education for anyone outside the city was basically available only to those who could afford to pay private tutors or send their children away to school. There are no laws here that children must attend school and the public school system is substandard (don't get me started on where America is headed in this department). What this means is that the number of people who are educated enough to impact the PROGRESS of the nation is minimal. Education is the key to success, personally and nationally...

 

[Matt84]

Ah. I see so the truth is coming out in the wash.

hmm? yeah... sort of unless you're being ironic. Please clarify. thanks

 

[Matt84]

I've read that 100 years ago Argentina and the US were, per capita, at about the same place, but the US made education a priority for ALL citizens and that catapulted America into it's current super power status while in Argentina education for anyone outside the city was basically available only to those who could afford to pay private tutors or send their children away to school. There are no laws here that children must attend school and the public school system is substandard (don't get me started on where America is headed in this department). What this means is that the number of people who are educated enough to impact the PROGRESS of the nation is minimal. Education is the key to success, personally and nationally...

Yes education is key to success.

But are you sure that was the main difference between the US and Argentina and what lead to such disparate results?

Actually Argentinians think they invented public education, or at least they are very proud of it, or at least of how indeed it built up the country. Some say the real success of Public Education in both American and Argentine cases was as it worked as a tool for national integration: to facilitate Germans, Irish, Italians, Basques, Jews, all to speak the language of the adopted homeland, and its theology (history class). I don't side with one vision more so than with the other but I can assure you that public welfare programs were not what caused American success and Argentine collapse.

I mean c'mon! The US was the FIRST American Republic. Its constitution outdates 70 years the Ar one, and unlike in the Argentine case it's never been suspended. Yes, it's been trampled on, and even habeas corpus has been threatened through some parts of the Patriot Act, just like during WWI and WII, but America has never interrupted the Institutional Process.

It's Philosophically-inspired Rule of Law what makes the US unique. It's not comparable to Argentina which is an Aristocratic Catholic country that wanted to be a modern Republic but could never actually achieve it.

Brazil on the other hand might be the next America -only provided they set in this century new post-modernist philosophical bases. Lula, deemed a "Socialist", is like a better version of Clinton: A "lefty" who declared by his actions that the era of big gov was over.

Plus.... stop comparing Argentina with the US. Compare Argentina with Canada if you want to. The US South American analogue is Brazil.

Orwellian: google "ad hominem" and try to understand it and stop using it.

 

[mini]

hmm? yeah... sort of unless you're being ironic. Please clarify. thanks

Now I know what your getting at. I can now see where you are coming from, what your point of view is, where your going with this whole thing, etc. I've heard this all before & there is no point me continuing my discussion with you. That's all. But it was fun while it lasted!