she makes me sick already...

ropasuciaafuera said:
And that's why Brazil has grown to be the sixth biggest economy in the world?
.


Brasil,being a super power country has huge problems of health, education, and social justice.[/quote]´

Very true Ropasucia..!! look at Cuba not being a Power at all, or a democracy, has good indexes of health and education...!!:)
 
Iznogud said:
The way the original statement is offered says that all responsibility, in the end, is ours exclusively (very adult thing to say) only to add "but the devils made us do it" (an extraordinary childish argument that forfeits all credibility).



Had the terms of said paragraph been written in a different order, assuming the ultimate responsibility as a conclusion, it could have been taken seriously. The way it came out it's just part of the eternal justifications our crooked society keeps pooping to remain acting in an irresponsible way. IMO
Thank you for your grammar remarks.
Iznogud said:
The following post is just more fingerpointing.

FYI, the government does not pay for our debts. WE pay. The debt is ours, regardless of the government (that WE had, elected or not) who contracted it and spent it on our behalf with or without approval or consensus.
What happened to "we and only we" being responsible?

For your information, this is not right. Previous governments put huge private debts in the state own box. It's called ''estatizacion de la deuda privada''. It's not that easy, it's not black or white, everything is connected and we should analyze deeper if we want to look forward.

I agree with you that is people in the first place who decide who's in charge of these kind of decisions. But that's not the cheap end of the story. It's not all about who's guilty (it is important to state who is legally responsible and all that, but that's not all of it). The chosen political leaders took an oath for doing the best for the country, they actually swear with a hand on the bible 'y si no fuera asi, que la patria me lo demande'. In many cases, as usual, they did things in contradiction to what the had offered to the voters before elected. So you can't blame people as easier. Even though, again, I acknowledge a portion of responsibility to the population.

This whole thing about the debt was consciously planned against the interests of the state (neoliberalism motto: reduce the state, let the market do what she wants) and in favor of certain corporations that took the most of it (surprisingly the same thing Rajoy and others are doing now in Europe, saving the banks and f**ying people). Why haven't these people (I mean the politicians that took part on these moves) been judged? Well, I guess probably for the same reason it took us 30 years for judging the dictators who planned the annihilation of 30 000 people (and many other somehow more subtle crimes, including the debt topic). It's a very complex situation. Conditions given they will be judged in the next years. There is a lot of information, documentaries and stuff about this. You should study as much history as I should study English. IMO.


Iznogud said:
Please, do not "dude" me until you reach maturity and learn to write/read your own statements properly.

I didn't dude you. It was a general expression. I wasn't writing for you in particular, as I am now.

Now. After all, please let me ask you these questions:
What is your opinion about the role IMF has played in South America during the last 4 decades?

What's the origin of the current situation in argentina? Not who's guilty about some particular events, but what the general conditions under which our actual situation and last 40 years of history are possible?

What do you expect from the government?

What'd make you support this government?
 
ROTFLMAO, guess that I must have spent the last 40 years busy living in the thick of it and experiencing most of it first hand. Too intense still to try to find different and enlightened interpretations in books.

Of all of your questions it's for me to find/have some answers and for your to keep wondering. Keep searching, but take a step back.
You're looking at it from too close. Where you see a tree it looks to me there's woods. Alternate answer would be: 42.


My remarks were not about grammar, they were about the revealing way you express your thoughts.
 
Iznogud said:
ROTFLMAO, guess that I must have spent the last 40 years busy living in the thick of it and experiencing most of it first hand. Too intense still to try to find different and enlightened interpretations in books.

Of all of your questions it's for me to find/have some answers and for your to keep wondering. Keep searching, but take a step back.
You're looking at it from too close. Where you see a tree it looks to me there's woods. Alternate answer would be: 42.


My remarks were not about grammar, they were about the revealing way you express your thoughts.

what are we discussing here if you don't want to take a stance?

I don't understand your point of view, not at all.

hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy? I don't see what are you laughing at. Honestly.
 
Maybe could we just pray?

Epistle of St James

Chapter 5, verses 1 to 6

Warning to the Rich

1 Well now, you rich! Lament, weep for the miseries that are coming to you.
2 Your wealth is rotting, your clothes are all moth-eaten.
3 All your gold and your silver are corroding away, and the same corrosion will be a witness against you and eat into your body. It is like a fire which you have stored up for the final days.
4 Can you hear crying out against you the wages which you kept back from the labourers mowing your fields? The cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord Sabaoth.
5 On earth you have had a life of comfort and luxury; in the time of slaughter you went on eating to your heart's content.
6 It was you who condemned the upright and killed them; they offered you no resistance.
 
@ropasuciaafuera
I strongly disagree with your view on corruption. I think it´s exactly that kind of factors that Argentina needs to deal with at this stage of development. Actually it should have been done a long time ago since Argentina been more or less stuck in the same development stage for a long time.
There are different ways to categorize development(democracy/economic, 3-stage, 5-stage etc.) I think we can agree on that Argentina cannot be compared to an African country. It just seems so difficult for Argentina to reach the next step. I believe that dealing with corruption, lack of transparency, rule of law, justice system are some of the key factors to be able to take that step. I truly believe that Argentina would benefit from more trust in government, politicians, institutions and business.

I agree that IMF recipes have not been helping developing countries much. It doesn't mean that all their recommendations are bad but sadly they never really take into account specific problems, needs and culture of a country to be of any real help.

I believe the origins of the current situation more or less started as far back as the Great Depression. Before that Argentina had a bright future.
High levels of foreign investments and growing industrialization, implementation of free education for all children(non-religious), Ley Palacios(which I think should make Alfredo Palacio a bigger hero for the working class than Peron and Evita combined) and the radicals work toward democratic institutions and fair elections.
However, after the crash 1929 Argentina has suffered from extreme and mostly stupid political decisions(the female vote being the main exception), coups and dictatorships.
The country kept on growing but also debt, peso losing value and inflation problems.
Maybe you don´t want to talk about who is responsible for the current economical situation and problems but I do. Dictorship, Peronism and Domingo Cavallo.

I think the universal child allowance is great (Carrio should have more credit for this) along with greatly improved rights for homo- and transexual persons.
Economically I think the Kirchners have turned a great and unique opportunity after the default to a probable disaster, at best if all goes well a mediocre performance. I am no specialist what so ever, but as far as I know a growing economy means growing inflation. The more the economy grows, the more careful you need to be with the inflation as it can easily turn into a vicious circle.
Where I come from we have an independent central bank with a specific goal to fight and keep inflation at a healthy level based on expected economical growth. It has worked out pretty well. (www.riksbank.se/en/Monetary-policy/Questions-and-answers/)
Might give you a clue why reliable statistics and independent institutions free from political pressure are important.

Stability is a keyword that should be used more. Imagine yourself if you and some friends play Monopoly but you have a someone that wants to speed up the game because it is not fast enough. This person starts changing some rules and then some more and after a while some players dont understand the new rules while others use them for their own benefit and someone might manage to cheat because the rules were unclear and you might have to go back to were you started changing the rules and it just becomes a mess. As an outsider I would not want play because of these unclear rules.

The new dollar rule is/was a massive change now/in the past but people are used to that old dollar rule now. I am not saying it is a good rule, but maybe a bit smaller change would have kept some of the players less annoyed. Many have used them as a backup because of mistrust in the game rules and the monopoly money.
Again I will use my native country as an example, sorry about that. If I want I can open what we call a currency account. Any account is tied to a specific currency of choice. Good for importers/exporters and for saving in other currencies if thats your thing. If you take cash out they are exchanged to national currency and you pay ~30% tax if there is a profit. Something similar could have been a softer approach on the dollar problem in Argentina.

The only thing that would make me forgive some of the mistakes that this government has done would be to change the Constitution. No, not the re-re, but to apply parliamentarism( I know a huge change of the monopoly rules) but i truly think it would be good for Argentina in the long run. As far as I can think of right now the only successful presidentialism is the U.S.
Even Nestor seem to have thought that it might be the solution for many of Argentina's problem, but on the other hand he and even more his wife have run the country in pretty much the opposite direction of that outcome.

To close this circle I can say that if this government starts to wake up to reality and deal with the corruption among other things I would at least tolerate them.
 
ItsyBits said:
The only thing that would make me forgive some of the mistakes that this government has done would be to change the Constitution. No, not the re-re, but to apply parliamentarism( I know a huge change of the monopoly rules) but i truly think it would be good for Argentina in the long run. As far as I can think of right now the only successful presidentialism is the U.S.
Even Nestor seem to have thought that it might be the solution for many of Argentina's problem, but on the other hand he and even more his wife have run the country in pretty much the opposite direction of that outcome..


i fear that may happen and we'll see Cristina for prime minister :rolleyes:
 
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