Six Months After: Ba Vs. Madrid

[fifs2]

After a little more than one week in Spain in may be premature to comment - but when has that stopped me!

In Spain after Vietnam, Canada and Argentina.

I'm still suffering the shock of First World prices after enjoying Third World prices.

You can tell Spain has a strong "Safety Net" because you would never know from walking in the streets that there is 25% unemployment. We will only see the true end game when the government is forced to rein in the Safety Net benefits.

First impressions: Spain is in the First World - things work, the streets are clean. Few broken pavements. Low noise pollution. The calming effect of clean streets, etc. is something I really enjoy in the First World. The endless traffic noises, trash everywhere, broken pavements of Argentina and Vietnam is tiresome.

Food: Spain reminds me of Argentina in its small variety of choices. The Argentine supermarket in general carries two items: hamburger patties and dulce de leche derived products. The Spanish supermarket also carries two items: 100 variations of ham and 100 varieties of flan: chocolate flan, flan with a cookie, coffee flan, lemon flan... OK I'm exaggerating a little but you get the idea. This is the country of the Museo de Jamon after all. What is it with Ham here - with all the Moorish blood walking around this is just plain wrong! But the supermarket here - like the ones in Corte Ingles are far superior to Argentina ones in terms of variety and quality of what is on offer. Wine is very good and cheap. Prices are lower than Canada in the supermarket. The quality is a little better than North America. I also have more confidence that the food is not as adulterated as North America - but I have no proof of this. Canada imports most of its food from the US.

Welcome to ham paradise or ham hell depending on your tastes! On my 1st supermarket visit here I felt disappointed..it was Mercadona and quite a poor selection and I thought oh god Im still in Buenos Aires and then I discovered Carrefour Planet and am probably a couple of kilos heavier as a result - their non-beef offering is a joy: oso bucco, lamb shoulder, pork belly, quail, minced lamb, turkey, pork etc with the usual staples of rabbit, suckling pig and other delights for the BBQ. It just makes for more varied dinner options so that alongside the Argentinean butcher and local market pretty much means I can open a cook book and actually buy the ingredients instead of playing "what can I use to substitute as I did for 9 years in Bsas". There is life beyond ham and flan my friend..may you find your own little nirvana soon!

 

[robwerwe]

means I can open a cook book and actually buy the ingredients instead of playing "what can I use to substitute as I did for 9 years in Bsas". There is life beyond ham and flan my friend..may you find your own little nirvana soon!

Haha, that happens to me too here in BA! Every time I look at a recipe online for anything from Asian food to British I end up looking at the ingredient list and say, no, no, no, maybe I can use oregano for that, hmmm, no.

 

[Cialu]

Dear forum members, let us stay calm, respect opinions and not accuse each other of being K, as apart from a old, grumpy former exile in France I have never met someone who showed unconditional support for this government...! A very weird thing, indeed. In many European countries there's often this strong and often unforgiving socialist- conservative divide but in Argentina people are pretty realistic with a mentality that implies that all politicians are thieves anyway - which happens in every country but it is just so obvious here, and I happen to like cynicism about politics, which is absent in the minds of many strongly polarized Europeans I have met.

Anyway. What I am seeing here on this last page is another argument that in my personal view would be way too unforgiving to Buenos Aires.

I am more conscious than ever of the negative sides of Buenos Aires and I would agree that it can be a bit repetitve place every now and then. But, please, when somebody starts favouring an extremely dull, superficial, children's museum-like, Disney city as Barcelona over Buenos Aires, I think you have just missed the essence of the capital of Argentina. I invite you to go and live in a place like Vienna. Beautiful museums, nice architecture too, more of a traditional European capital. After a while you will find out that in essence many of these European glorious capitals are all the same and rather boring and monotonous, without life, without a certain spice to it.

However, people who (not necessarily specifically someone in this thread, but more the general negative crowd I would imagine) forget about the beauty and attractiveness of the place, and just shout their desilusion all the time, please allow for a bit of sunlight in your life....

you describe the architectural and urban design sides of BA, and it's alll correct and proper. incl self exp<b></b>ression as graffitti with it's own value, mosaics etc. no arguments re beauty and possibly nuanced - or not- differences between neighboorhoods. This is purely an aesthetic approach, valid for art critisizm. Not for a living, breathing city. in my opinion, and with greatest respect.

NY, Barcelona, London, Boston, Avignon etc have exact same variety and stylistic complexity and beauty you appreciate. Out of American cities, i can think of NY, Providence, Boston, SanFran. which all have history dating back few hundred yrs. Rejkjavik - i don't recall when it was founded - is amazing in that respect, minus the different neighboorhoods. If you care to take the point further, actually, London would be a beautiful example as it was made up of a bunch of villages all joined together; to this day each village has it's own unique spirit, layout, mythology and 'attitude'. NYC , or rather Manhattan, has been founded as a single entity; however you have to be honest here - it's boroughs are just as different and varied as those of BA, perhaps more so. Eg people, architechture, 'worldview' of Chelsea, East village, Greenwich or west villages, flatiron, Upper east or west sides cannot be more different. furthermore, it's even reflected in clothing styles, sometimes professions, etc! and NYC has the greatest mix of architectural styles in my view. I will also argue that the 'porteno style' prevails in ALL neighboorhoods - be it cobblestone streets of San Telmo or 'wide boulevards' with jazz bars of Serrano sq or Caballito or Belgrano - so i speak of those i've seen - honestly, the spirit of the place changes very little in my view, it possibly depends on how romantically/sentimentally/artistically inclined one is. IE Mentality/behaviour/people are very similar . Which is not at all a negative view, more a view of cohesion.

And last point. I don't know if it's FAIR to compare BA with London, Paris, NYC. BA is a capital of a great country, with tremendous resources - people, thigns, intellectual etc. But the 'energy' people speak about - ok the agitation of big city, you have it in Moscow, Hong Kong, Beijing, Tokyo, Paris - that is different from 'vibe, ambiance, energy' which i personally experience in London and NYC. It has to do w my personal tastes - eg i do not consider having 43 boliches/bars/raves all playing commercial music as 'vibe" - but people get all orgazmic describing the partying here in BsAs. To me, it's just consumption, or clubbing. In London, there is a bunch of independent theater/music/art which is exhibited, lots of free things, lots of international dance/theatre/art . Huge numbers of free lunchtime classical concerts in historical venues throughtout town. Stand up comedy, shows etc. Same for fashion - it's outward oriented, living in a world. That worked as 'energy, vibe" for me. That is the energy which made so many good music bands there. IMHO. Same for Manhattan.

I don't know if comparison is fair at all fair. I love BsAs, it's eclectic, beautiful yet stern , it has tango which i love to dance, good people and lovely weather. I don't know how one compares, or if it is worth even posing the question. I am at a loss as to why not clean dog poop - because it's a reflection of your love and appreciation and respect for your city and your country. And i don't see same opportunities for that vibrant exposure to all kinds of wild cultural possibilities - and thus sharing of opinion and opennes and tolerance - which i've grown to love before. It's a different place. And we all love it for our own reasons.

 

[canadien]

Twice in the space of a month someone has asked me for directions on the street and in despite of knowing where it was and reaplying in Spanish they have walked off half way through me talking, once they just laughed at me.

My flat mates have had similar experiences with some of their workmates allergic experience to foreign food and culture.

I have often had people stop me for directions in Buenos Aires and even with my limited Spanish, my help was always acknowledged with gratitude and courtesy. I am therefore surprised by your anecdote.

 

[Crema Americana]

I can't help but feel a tinge of jealousy... even with the crisis, I'd rather be in Spain than BA. Of course I may be biased since it's my mother's homeland.

I'm a little surprised at hearing people complain about Spain's food choices. Yes, you might not find 100 different kinds of salad dressing or cereal in the supermarket aisle, but if you know where to shop you can get everything you need as far as staples are concerned - and good quality, too. All kinds of fish, meats, cheeses, vegetables/fruits, etc. Especially when compared to Buenos Aires you have a lot more options. You're practically next door to France! Now if you're relying on bars to get your meals, I can understand the dissatisfaction. Spain does have good restaurants, as well... at least in my opinion.

I don't know about BA being more "alive" than any other major city... I think part of what makes it feel alive is that it's dirty and potentially dangerous. That gets my heart racing! That and all the people crammed into a small area - especially on a Saturday night. A lot of these subjective opinions come from what you make of it as well... the particular streets you frequent, the people you are with, and even the season. Paris felt alive to me... so did New York... Barcelona, Madrid, Toulouse... even Atlanta (though perhaps that last one wasn't particularly exciting!) To me a city's "life" is more about its individual charm and quirkiness than night life.

It goes without saying that we all have a different concept of what's beautiful or interesting.

As for the people... I find it almost impossible to compare and speak in generalities since there are so many exceptions to the rule - even my personal acquaintances run the gamut. That said, I think people are generally more trustworthy in Spain - they have higher standards and ethics - while in Argentina they are generally more vivos and cancheros - charismatic in their confidence and quick witted. I don't know many shy Argentines. To me Spanish people are simpler, in a way... yet at the same time more refined and professional when it's required of them. That is of course a reflection of living in the first world and expecting things to work a certain way. The Argentine is very dramatic and passionate, even in the workplace... bigger egos, less mature... often self absorbed. I find them to be a little more superficial - more plastic surgery, more attention to brands, one has to do the obligatory trip to Miami at least once (finances permitting) and then tell everyone about it. However they seem to make up for a lot of that in personality, charisma, and good looks. I'd say they are more daring as well... the Spanish usually play by the rules. Spanish people are charismatic as well (especially in Andalucia), but it's not the type of 'laying-it-on-thick' that you get in Argentina. Argentines are performers.
I find the level of open mindedness and general social attitudes to be about equal in both countries.
All generalities of course.

 

[Cialu]

I can't help but feel a tinge of jealousy... even with the crisis, I'd rather be in Spain than BA.....

As for the people... I find it almost impossible to compare and speak in generalities since there are so many exceptions to the rule - even my personal acquaintances run the gamut. That said, I think people are generally more trustworthy in Spain - they have higher standards and ethics - while in Argentina they are generally more vivos and cancheros - charismatic in their confidence and quick witted. I don't know many shy Argentines. To me Spanish people are simpler, in a way... yet at the same time more refined and professional when it's required of them. That is of course a reflection of living in the first world and expecting things to work a certain way. The Argentine is very dramatic and passionate, even in the workplace... bigger egos, less mature... often self absorbed. I find them to be a little more superficial - more plastic surgery, more attention to brands, one has to do the obligatory trip to Miami at least once (finances permitting) and then tell everyone about it. However they seem to make up for a lot of that in personality, charisma, and good looks. I'd say they are more daring as well... the Spanish usually play by the rules. Spanish people are charismatic as well (especially in Andalucia), but it's not the type of 'laying-it-on-thick' that you get in Argentina. Argentines are performers.
I find the level of open mindedness and general social attitudes to be about equal in both countries.
All generalities of course.

I really like how you describe what differences you see, in a non judgemental, observational way. If i may ask, were you a born/raised Argentine -- that may allow more insights and intimate knowledge of the culture, of course?

What i wonder - and of course i'm too lazy to do real socio-anthropologic research - is whether these cultural differences are a result of history/some attitude change/genetics vs environment/politics/economic development etc. How did it come about? why? I don't know enough to extrapolate. But some thing i cannot explain:

- that at some point, 90% of BsAs population were all spanish/italian immigrants, or metisos whcih came out of marriages with locals - so genetically i would say very similar to mediterranean/spanish/Italian nations, no? so: why such drastically different cultural norms and values? why people act and behave and feel differently?

- spanish colonization happened in many other Lat Am countries, why argentina so different /unique if compared to Brazil, Uruguay, etc; similarly, all american countries (perhaps, exception of Iceland) were founded few hundred yrs ago so it's not about 'building a national identity' and 'young country' etc

- open minded vs closed minded society, in relation to the world (no, not about gay marriages and sex prior to marriage) - receptivity to new cultural trends and possibilities, change and flexibility in economics and policies, etc, dealing with outdated and beurocratic systems in 21st c. etc,

- socialism vs democracy? i've mentioned in an earlier trend how frequently i see references to old Russian style. Eg dog poop/limited food choices/bitching about the system with zero wish to change it, living with broken streets, power shortages (to point of having no water for days) etc

 

[Joe]

Sevilla is starting to resemble Baires more and more with each passing day. After more than a week of a garbage strike refuse is being blown down every street.

 

[robwerwe]

But the 'energy' people speak about - ok the agitation of big city, you have it in Moscow, Hong Kong, Beijing, Tokyo, Paris - that is different from 'vibe, ambiance, energy' which i personally experience in London and NYC. It has to do w my personal tastes - eg i do not consider having 43 boliches/bars/raves all playing commercial music as 'vibe" - but people get all orgazmic describing the partying here in BsAs. To me, it's just consumption, or clubbing. In London, there is a bunch of independent theater/music/art which is exhibited, lots of free things, lots of international dance/theatre/art . Huge numbers of free lunchtime classical concerts in historical venues throughtout town. Stand up comedy, shows etc. Same for fashion - it's outward oriented, living in a world. That worked as 'energy, vibe" for me. That is the energy which made so many good music bands there. IMHO. Same for Manhattan.

This is a great description.
I've not yet read anyone describe why the 'vibe' in BA is so special. For me, the 'energy' is more crowds and rude people than actual 'vibe' espceially in plastic perlermo.

 

[Mano Negra]

Coming from London I can say that BA doesn't quite have the same buzz London has and feels a bit dead in comparison.
I'm confused as to why some of the locals say that BA is cosmopolitan.

As a Londoner I find your statement confusing. What does BA lack? Arts scene? Music scene? Personally I think it is much more lively here. And, other than a few dreadful clubs, London closes at about 11.00pm, which is when (even at the age of 46) I am just warming up.

Are you really from London, England???

 

[Jaredberryman]

The behavior by the medic was not normal. Doctors here do NOT cross those bounds, and that sounds so weird. Most doctors do not look at their patients' bodies, while they are working, as sexually attractive, but usually are thinking in terms of the medical part, or at least that's the impression my doctor friends have given me. Also, getting groped in Argentina is not acceptable or normal behavior, although it's pretty common for guys to leer or say something inappropriate. Argentina is a place where the culture has sexually objectified women, though, so it doesn't surprise me that this could have happened. It's truly saddening that this kind of behavior exists, and I wish things could be changed. I have actually gotten hit on by prostitutes as I was walking hand in hand with my wife (I know, not nearly as bad as what you experienced). And most of those prostitutes are probably women tricked into coming to Argentina for a job, and when they got there, they basically became prostitution slaves with no way out (or they kill you). These kind of things are the some of the most despicable aspects of Argentine culture.

However, it can be much much worse. Of all the Latin American countries, Argentina is by far the least macho one. Women stand up for themselves often and will not allow themselves to be abused in many scenarios. Also, there are quite a few respectful men who do not have three wives at once (normal basically in a lot of Latin American countries). If you want machismo, just go to Venezuela. So one of the things that I do enjoy about Argentina, is at least they are a little bit better off than other places in Central and South America (actually much better in a lot of ways. Hopefully, over time, things will continue to change for the better.