Six Months After: Ba Vs. Madrid

[PhilinBSAS]

I was quoting lauren...don't shoot this messenger please...I've no teaching qualifications BUT I've taught at the University of Khartoum so IM a real teacher too..! h34r:

Well BANG

to whoever said it first and subsequently repeated that qualified and experienced TEFL teachers who have proper certificates are not "teachers"

I think it may be useful to examine all this a little more closely.

As you mentioned your time at the Uni of Khartoum (what an interesting place to have worked) I'll explain my background. For a part of my working life I've been a lecturer, a tutor at graduate and post grad levels and a degree course coordinator in a Uni in London and have academic as well as other professional qualifications but was rather circumspect at the time in calling myself a "teacher" having made the decision not to do PGCE after leaving Uni to do postgrad stuff. This was out of deference to those who actually learnt how to teach and could demonstrate this to a recognised standard by an objective measure i.e were professional teachers.

This gets to the heart of it. I think teaching is a professional occupation and I don't think that teaching can be adequately acquired and expounded without having been through a recognised course. It's that simple to me.


Subsequently and having put in the time, effort and resources - and it was very intensive - to do CELTA teaching theory and then teaching practice and worked up to DELTA entry level and carried on with CPD and done a further certificate course I have no compunction in saying I'm a teacher.

BTW In Europe CELTA is regarded as a basic teaching qualification - and you still need more to teach in a secondary school, ESOL in a tertiary college etc

Now I'm possibly going to upset others on here having sounded off myself but IMHO someone who has not some sort of basic professional accreditation or aspiration to learn and stay current in the profession of "teaching" and says they just "teach English" is better described as a "tutor" in the same way as I described myself as a lecturer. Just having a first language and a education to secondary/tertiary doesn't give you the skills to teach that language.

I know there are plenty of L1 people on here - and even those who dont have English as L1 maybe just L2 etc and who derive an income from "teaching english" and have no qualms about saying they are "teachers". Well fine 'cos that's how the rules (or lack of them) operate here. Doesn't change my opinion of teaching being a profession etc etc ad nauseum without I hope me sounding too "preachy"

We could go off and look for definitions of what is a teacher but having no professional accreditation or aspiration puts this in question in my mind. You can quote a number of examples of people in history who we would all recognise as being "teachers" even if they hadn't done a teaching course. Well that is history. Also there are a never ending growth in "near" professions - to quote fiction in Hitch Hikers Guide - Telephone Sanitisers - which are dubious and whose net worth to the planet can be argued. I've worked with unqualified teachers and have no problems with that - other than trying and in some cases successfully persuading them to do a proper course!

Of course the background to this is the effort to drive up professional standards at least in Europe and to stop people from being ripped off as well as other bad stuff. I went for a walk yesterday and spotted at least five "establishments" offering English language teaching. By whose judgement? Don't say "the Market"!!

Sorry to bang on with my more than ha'pence's worth. For anyone still retaining any interest really this could be a thread for debate on it's own

 

[PhilinBSAS]

Back to the thread.

Madrid at the moment is not as lively as previously - which I saw the last time I was there last February.

I'd say the explanation is due to the economic crisis plus the political uncertainty. I saw Puerto del Sol and Plaza Santa Anna - one of the places in Europe I'd point to as having great "spark" energy and ambience as actually rather dull.

I know Madrid fairly well over 30 years as I've family connections and a previous long term GF who was married to a madrileño and lived there. There is a distinct Madrid character. But this gloom isn't restricted to just Madrid. Sevilla seemed definitely depressed too. I dont know about Valencia one of my favourite places in Spain but the economic prospects there are so dire I expect even Las Fallas will be low key.

 

[fifs2]

"Qualified and experienced TEFL teachers who have proper certificates e.g CELTA and not ones from Mickey Mouse Academy are "REAL TEACHERS" by any definition."

Please scroll back a few and copy paste that. I must be losing it, no recollection of Micky Mouse Academy as far as I remember. By the way, I LIKE Micky Mouse, what does he have to do with all this?

No harm nor foul meant towards the member of the point where this all went horribly wrong (maybe it’s still kind of early in the morning, but I’ve scrolled back a few pages and I can’t even pinpoint the origin of the entire point of no return…. That’s how little personal resentment I feel towards that person (a female expat with a child, but that’s all I remember off hand) when I read a response in which I was quoted and felt rubbed the wrong way. I felt that her response to my post had nothing to do with Starlucia's. I got pissed and expressed it. We will never be Facebook friends, and that's still okay.

I can respect anyone's post here (and I´ve seen some real gems!) as long as we don't resort to the peanut gallery's LOLs about unrelated jabs. Not cool. (Personal note, as of 1998, I detest the use of LOL when there are so many other alternatives nowadays. It makes me think of my high school AOL IM days).

I can respect someone outright telling me that presenting myself as XYZ because of a previous statement that I wrote under my username not being passive aggressive and starting to bring in my vocation which I’m proud of and whatnot. That doesn’t make you clever or funny, it just makes you look like you’re going out of your way to be mean to someone who you don’t know about an issue that never pertained to you in the first place.

A pregnant woman is not the voice of reason, and yesterday WAS uncomfortably warm (and I was probably hungry), so let's just take it for what it was. I felt that it was an unnecessary response, and expressed that without resorting to 4 letter words or taking it to a personal level that wasn´t previously mentioned. If I ever feel like I’ve been in the wrong by a certain point, I know to get off my soapbox. I regret that at some point I misinterpreted something, but I don’t regret being forthright about it.
Let's agree to disagree, and let bygones be bygones. Let's not decide to join in on the disagreement and start tearing a poster whom you don´t know and have never previously had a beef with to shreds on a personal and totally unrelated level.

I still stand behind my original post where I did write to StarLucia:

"I wish you tons of luck in Spain, and I'd also be very eager to read an update if yours at some point, who knows what could happen? Very cool what you are doing, and even cooler giving us a viewpoint that you wouldn't see in Lonely Planet or on Wikipedia."

Well written post, and it sucks that somewhere along the line (intentionally or not) we kind of forgot that there was something about Madrid having more affordable and accessible travel opportunities but inferior ice cream.

Lauren, I honestly laughed (in a KIND way ok) at Starlucia response and yours...I don't think wars will ever start between females who speak honestly and openly with each other as I tried to do, as Ive always liked Starlucias posts. She has always seemed a reasoned intelligent poster in all the time Ive been here..unlike the whackos I wont mention..hope you escape them! I genuinely have no gripe with any calling themselves teacher, tutor or otherwise. I did it for a while and felt like vomiting every day at the thought of being the educator for a group of students. Teachers have my full respect especially those who do it with a passion and who leave a lasting impression, as some have done for me in my lifetime. I wish you peace Lauren as today is the day of such. I also secretly wish you meet up with syngirl and become best friends so this has a happy endong as I wish all life events do.

 

[fifs2]

Well BANG

to whoever said it first and subsequently repeated that qualified and experienced TEFL teachers who have proper certificates are not "teachers"

I think it may be useful to examine all this a little more closely.

As you mentioned your time at the Uni of Khartoum (what an interesting place to have worked) I'll explain my background. For a part of my working life I've been a lecturer, a tutor at graduate and post grad levels and a degree course coordinator in a Uni in London and have academic as well as other professional qualifications but was rather circumspect at the time in calling myself a "teacher" having made the decision not to do PGCE after leaving Uni to do postgrad stuff. This was out of deference to those who actually learnt how to teach and could demonstrate this to a recognised standard by an objective measure i.e were professional teachers.

This gets to the heart of it. I think teaching is a professional occupation and I don't think that teaching can be adequately acquired and expounded without having been through a recognised course. It's that simple to me.


Subsequently and having put in the time, effort and resources - and it was very intensive - to do CELTA teaching theory and then teaching practice and worked up to DELTA entry level and carried on with CPD and done a further certificate course I have no compunction in saying I'm a teacher.

BTW In Europe CELTA is regarded as a basic teaching qualification - and you still need more to teach in a secondary school, ESOL in a tertiary college etc

Now I'm possibly going to upset others on here having sounded off myself but IMHO someone who has not some sort of basic professional accreditation or aspiration to learn and stay current in the profession of "teaching" and says they just "teach English" is better described as a "tutor" in the same way as I described myself as a lecturer. Just having a first language and a education to secondary/tertiary doesn't give you the skills to teach that language.

I know there are plenty of L1 people on here - and even those who dont have English as L1 maybe just L2 etc and who derive an income from "teaching english" and have no qualms about saying they are "teachers". Well fine 'cos that's how the rules (or lack of them) operate here. Doesn't change my opinion of teaching being a profession etc etc ad nauseum without I hope me sounding too "preachy"

We could go off and look for definitions of what is a teacher but having no professional accreditation or aspiration puts this in question in my mind. You can quote a number of examples of people in history who we would all recognise as being "teachers" even if they hadn't done a teaching course. Well that is history. Also there are a never ending growth in "near" professions - to quote fiction in Hitch Hikers Guide - Telephone Sanitisers - which are dubious and whose net worth to the planet can be argued. I've worked with unqualified teachers and have no problems with that - other than trying and in some cases successfully persuading them to do a proper course!

Of course the background to this is the effort to drive up professional standards at least in Europe and to stop people from being ripped off as well as other bad stuff. I went for a walk yesterday and spotted at least five "establishments" offering English language teaching. By whose judgement? Don't say "the Market"!!

Sorry to bang on with my more than ha'pence's worth. For anyone still retaining any interest really this could be a thread for debate on it's own

AHHHH! Phil uou got me, you done got me good Phil...grandma, grandma..is that you..I see the light I'm comin....just wanna say........FECKIN TEACHERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[PhilinBSAS]

AHHHH! Phil uou got me, you done got me good Phil...grandma, grandma..is that you..I see the light I'm comin....just wanna say........FECKIN TEACHERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

i would recommend a good basic course in English :lol:

 

[SpencerH]

OK, getting this post back on topic...

I've been living here for nearly three years now. My long-time (Argentinian) girlfriend and I are wanting to take our careers elsewhere and have been discussing possible cities, particularly Madrid. She has hereditary Italian citizenship and therefore a legal resident of all EU countries. I, being North American don't yet know what kind of process I'll need to go through short of marrying her, and what kind of services I'll have access to when there. I am currently studying a second career and don't know if I will have time to work yet.
What I'm curious about is if there is anything from Bs As I will likely end up missing when there. A big issue is rebuilding a social network when there. Also, what kind of services are available, particularly those us yuppies living in Palermo-Recoleta are used to. Are there good gyms with pools? Are they expensive? Places to jog or rollerblade like the Bosques de Palermo? What are Spaniards values, specifically juxtaxposed with Argentinians'? How do they spend there days?
In my mind Europe in general must be much more interesting and cultured than here, but that could just be my imagination as I've traveled North and South America more than anything. I imagine the food as being better, more natural and varied; the streets more old-world and pleasant to walk down.
Finally is Madrid as expensive as they say it is? For a non-working student? Is there another European city that would be better for this purpose?

Regards,
Spencer

 

[Cialu]

quote:
Being a woman: Adding another one. Madrid wins, hands down. I got harrassed on a near daily basis in Buenos Aires, groped more times than I care to remember, hit on while undergoing medical exams during which I was topless, by the emergency room doctor, you name it. Part of my post traumatic stress came from all of that, actually. Men here tend to be pretty chivalrous, but they don't seem to feel like they're owed your time, attention, smile or more for being that way. I'm not single so I can't comment on the dating scene, but I will say that if a guy hits on me and I explain that I have a boyfriend, he doesn't tend to get angry and throw a tantrum or call me a "puta" just for saying I'm not interested. He'll probably ask me about him, talk for me a while longer to see if I'm serious, then say "much gusto" and walk away. Spanish men look on the street, but they don't touch and they usually don't say anything. It cannot be understated how much this adds to my general quality of life. I do not miss the sense of dread I would have in BA putting on my shoes to go to the grocery store. (Color-wise I blend in with Spaniards and Argentines, in case you're wondering. I hate to imagine what the super blonde women deal with.)

;
;


I am so sorry you have had to deal with this. Really.

A general question to the forum: how common is a thing like this? because it's not just plain macho/ proprio type of behaviour. This is description of attachs - systematic, demeaning, pressuring attacks? What happens as consequence - eg, in US one can file a formal complaint with the State Medical Board, and the doctor's privileges can be removed until further investigation etc. I don't know how to deal with behaviour like this on the street other than to pass by, but you are describing conversations - so eg, party, friends, - one cannot simply walk away?

 

[DontMindMe]

What I'm curious about is if there is anything from Bs As I will likely end up missing when there. A big issue is rebuilding a social network when there. Also, what kind of services are available, particularly those us yuppies living in Palermo-Recoleta are used to. Are there good gyms with pools? Are they expensive? Places to jog or rollerblade like the Bosques de Palermo? What are Spaniards values, specifically juxtaxposed with Argentinians'? How do they spend there days?
In my mind Europe in general must be much more interesting and cultured than here, but that could just be my imagination as I've traveled North and South America more than anything. I imagine the food as being better, more natural and varied; the streets more old-world and pleasant to walk down.
Finally is Madrid as expensive as they say it is? For a non-working student? Is there another European city that would be better for this purpose?

It's a European capital city. Of course there are nice gyms and outdoor places to exercise! You can Google around for this stuff. I just registered at a gym (http://www.evolutionwellness.es/index.php) for 195 euros for three months paid all together. No pool, but classes are included as well as a personal consultation and training session. My friends in yuppie neighborhoods pay around 100 per month at their gym. Here are some outdoor places: http://www.esmadrid.com/madridrio/html/madrid-rio-home-en.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buen_Retiro_park.

Who says Madrid is expensive? I'm scratching my head at that one. It's widely known as one of the most affordable major cities in Europe and the developed world. See the previous posts from myself and starlucia about prices and food. But I mean, if you want to be a yuppie, you're going to pay for it just like you would anywhere else.

Spanish values? How do they spend their days? Keep in mind that within Spain you have Cataluña and el País Vasco, which culturally are completely different countries with different official languages (they would like to be different countries politically too, actually). Not to mention a variety of other regions where things can change quite rapidly in the span of an hour's long train trip, including the language or dialect. So a Basque sheep farmer is not going to spend the day the same way a professor in Madrid or a chef in Andalucía might. These are my observations having spent less than a year in Madrid so far: Family and friends are very important here, but they are more open to newcomers than I expected. Most people seem to be very upset about the cuts in public health, education and other services, which have been a great source of pride for the country. Some people are racist and xenophobic, as a holdover from the Franco days. Many are not. (I also have a theory that the widespread use of panty hose that I see on working women downtown is a holdover from those conservative days, but what do I know). They're not obsessed with work like we are in the U.S., but they don't loathe and avoid it like so many Argentines do. Especially now, they tend to be grateful for any job they have and willing to do whatever they can to keep it. It's a Catholic country, but I don't really feel that in Madrid other than the holidays. Oh, and abortion is legal and so is same-sex marriage.

I find the streets here more pleasant to walk down because of the safety and machista issues I've already written about, plus I really like the people. I can stroll around and stop to look at things that interest me without being hissed at, robbed or worse. And it's especially beautiful at night, when all the buildings are lit up. In BA I typically walked quickly looking straight ahead, bitch face firmly on, death grip on my purse.

You'll realize what you miss about Buenos Aires once you leave it and spend enough time away. I don't know if any other city out there gets under one's skin the way that place does, for better or for worse. Suerte!

 

[DontMindMe]

I am so sorry you have had to deal with this. Really.

A general question to the forum: how common is a thing like this? because it's not just plain macho/ proprio type of behaviour. This is description of attachs - systematic, demeaning, pressuring attacks? What happens as consequence - eg, in US one can file a formal complaint with the State Medical Board, and the doctor's privileges can be removed until further investigation etc. I don't know how to deal with behaviour like this on the street other than to pass by, but you are describing conversations - so eg, party, friends, - one cannot simply walk away?

How would you define "plain macho/proprio" behaviour? (Did you mean piropo o propio because none of it's propio to me). I do not know if my experiences with the male medical professionals were the norm. Maybe in Argentina it is culturally acceptable to be by yourself in a dark room having your naked chest sonogrammed by a man while he tells you you're pretty and asks if you have a boyfriend. Perhaps I chose my words wrong. I cannot be 100% sure that man was "hitting on me." However, I think that in the sort of vulnerable position I was in, that behaviour is unacceptable regardless of intent. The emergency room doc (not Argentine actually, and in a different clinic) was professional until my boyfriend left, then got pretty unmistakeably flirtatious. It's just like, come on, 30 minutes ago my blood was being taken to see if you needed to crack my chest open, can I go a damn night in the emergency room without being reminded that I'm basically a walking vagina that exists for men's pleasure in this godforsaken place? Maybe it was his way of trying to cheer me up (I'm being generous here), but I wasn't raised to value myself according to my youth/beauty and the way men react to it, so all it did was make me feel worse. File a complaint? It wasn't recorded, and it would have been my word against theirs and probably laughed off anyway. Also, hello, it's Argentina. It never ocurred to me to even talk to a supervisor. Plus, you know, I thought I might die or whatever so it wasn't a priority at the time.

"One cannot simply walk away?" I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not victim blaming because no, it's not always that simple. They often follow you, or your friends want to stay and you can't afford to take a cab home by yourself, etc. etc. Plus, I should be the one to leave the bar or party when an asshole with masculinity issues displays anger toward someone bluntly turning down an advance because she tried to do it politely ten times but he still wouldn't leave her alone? Really? I did eventually stop going out to unfamiliar nightlife venues almost completely, also due to budget issues.

This is a subject I will not answer any more questions about 1) because it's unpleasant for me and 2) we're off topic again. If you start a separate thread about it, I'm sure all the 60-something retired men who seem to be the majority of the forum now will jump in to tell you how things are. Anything else about Madrid anyone wants to know, I'm all yours.

 

[Cialu]

No victim blaming here, that's the last thing ever. Please do not read any negativity here - none was intended. I was describing my experience - usually the unwanted /sexist remarks happen (to me) in public places - on a street, transport, shops, tourist attractions, from complete strangers. Obviously i just walk away; i don't know - and that was my question here - what would one do if such encountered at a party/among close friends. Again, i'm from North american/european background, so my standards and boundaries are different, and perhaps that can be sensed also. And given my lifestyle i don't usually find myself in clubs/pubs etc where i would encounter such. But yes, i do feel entitled - to have a 2nd person present if a male doc examines me (of course, unless it's an emergency, ie there is no time to wait for CAT scan results, they just do thorocenthesis based on clinical findings) , and yes, to make hell for the offending individual if i can - because again, i'm feeling strongly that it's wrong and thus i need to act to prevent it in future...

Things you describe are very unsettling. To anyone, male or female. I wish they never happened, and i was asking re dealing w such. I have to say, having lived in some European countries and USA, none would be acceptable socially and people do complain. The worst i've heard were voyeurs /rubbing in subway, - adults, -and whistling/remarks (sorry for spelling, yes you are right it's piropo), - usually older men/nonworking losers or construction workers (my expereince, not stereotyping); and groping - Eastern Europe, teenagers.