Six Months After: Ba Vs. Madrid

To return to theme of comparison from my other theme of security and machoism in SoAmerica ;)

It's slightly tangential yet related comparison: London. I understand that perhaps Spain/Italy is where many Argentines may find themselves due to language and possibly passport but London is part of EU now. Having lived there, i can only comment positively:
-absolute safety even in certain 'bad ' neighboorhoods
-everything is wicked expensive UNLESS you cook at home
-quality of food (non processed) and variety is unsurpassable, at regular to cheap supermarkets
-good variety of political and cultural commentary and happenings, amazing media
-women are considered women, and equal citizens in each and every way ;)
- drunks - quiet drunks - everywhere after pub's close.
-No dog shit and you can wear fancy heels.
- i dressed up for fun, nothing oversexed but good fun stuff. if i wore what i wore tehre, people would stop and stare and maybe more.
- cheap frequent travel- europe, within england, great transport
- beurocracy in banks usually gives way to reason, people genuinely try to help you
- some level of reserve at work yet people socialize a lot and intimately once share a hobby /actiity
-vibrancy, energy level - for me at that time - was unsurpassed. happenings daily, you just feel alive, part of the bigger world. it was tremendous.
-oh, and much better sulmmers ;)

I think that it is the emotional connections which are irreversibly lost once one leaves BA. and thus the romantic aura persists. That would be true leaving any city you became a part of for any time and connected with. Practically, though, well...
 
-vibrancy, energy level - for me at that time - was unsurpassed. happenings daily, you just feel alive, part of the bigger world. it was tremendous.
-oh, and much better sulmmers ;)

Coming from London I can say that BA doesn't quite have the same buzz London has and feels a bit dead in comparison.
I'm confused as to why some of the locals say that BA is cosmopolitan.
 
Coming from London I can say that BA doesn't quite have the same buzz London has and feels a bit dead in comparison.
I'm confused as to why some of the locals say that BA is cosmopolitan.

- i wonder what your view would be. i agree here 200%. for me, the 'buzz' had a bit of all mixed in - the people, the humour, sports, history , perspective; also more tangible for many - music scene, varied and unmatched ; art shows ; theatre; travel w mixture of all styles in everythign. Style - real style - in dress, behaviour, eating out, human contact. I cannot comment on drug/underground raves as was not a part of it. But the city was 'happening' - you feel there part of living history yourself. NYC is more sedate by comparison.
- in BsAs when i hear of 'energy' - someone said it here before - it is more akin to agitation, nervous excitement - but of course the clubbing/music scene here i'm not privy to.
-by 'cosmopolitan' they may mean 'past imperial' aura the city retained? or plain big, as in scale, or in trying to encompass all and everyone?
 
I think some of the people here get, crowds, poverty, pollution and a bad tempered population mixed up with "energy". I feel quite a weight here when I look at people here.

There are a few underground club nights here, but more of a middle class Palermo vibe. The clubbing scene is pretty lame and doesn't offer much more then commercial dance and cumbia. Although I'm sure some will disagree on this. I feel clubbing is a bit of a 90s thing. Well perhaps I'm just old and my clubbing days in Manchester are long gone :)

BA never really matched up to peoples descriptions and what I read in Magazines and countless travel books.

I got here and felt there must be something missing, or perhaps I just haven't found the barrio where all the fun is. Nope, its just not London / Paris /NYC / Tokyo / Madrid / Barcelona / Manchester or Berlin to name a few cities I feel have more life.

All this is subjective and I'm sure there be someone along in a moment to argue that BA has more "energy" or what every. ;)

Palermo on a Saturday night feels like a tame Tuesday in London.
 
I think some of the people here get, crowds, poverty, pollution and a bad tempered population mixed up with "energy". I feel quite a weight here when I look at people here.

There are a few underground club nights here, but more of a middle class Palermo vibe. The clubbing scene is pretty lame and doesn't offer much more then commercial dance and cumbia. Although I'm sure some will disagree on this. I feel clubbing is a bit of a 90s thing. Well perhaps I'm just old and my clubbing days in Manchester are long gone :)

BA never really matched up to peoples descriptions and what I read in Magazines and countless travel books.

I got here and felt there must be something missing, or perhaps I just haven't found the barrio where all the fun is. Nope, its just not London / Paris /NYC / Tokyo / Madrid / Barcelona / Manchester or Berlin to name a few cities I feel have more life.

All this is subjective and I'm sure there be someone along in a moment to argue that BA has more "energy" or what every. ;)

Palermo on a Saturday night feels like a tame Tuesday in London.
Really? that weird man is like you live in a totally diferent city than me lol
 
Perhaps you live in the same city as the Ks ;)
No i live in the city of the anti Ks (i work in clarin lol), but that don't make me blind, i hate the Ks so don't come to me with that, I can hate a government but still see that the city is plenty of activities and that feel much more alive than many of the citys you mention in where i have already lived by the way, not all of them. You act like the Ks that you dispite so much, defending your vision by saying that if i don't see the things like you then i'm a K, it sound quite similar to what the K say as gorila to anyone that don't think similar. At the end you have lot in common with them, weird that you are not one of their clowns.
 
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- i wonder what your view would be. i agree here 200%. for me, the 'buzz' had a bit of all mixed in - the people, the humour, sports, history , perspective; also more tangible for many - music scene, varied and unmatched ; art shows ; theatre; travel w mixture of all styles in everythign. Style - real style - in dress, behaviour, eating out, human contact. I cannot comment on drug/underground raves as was not a part of it. But the city was 'happening' - you feel there part of living history yourself. NYC is more sedate by comparison.
- in BsAs when i hear of 'energy' - someone said it here before - it is more akin to agitation, nervous excitement - but of course the clubbing/music scene here i'm not privy to.
-by 'cosmopolitan' they may mean 'past imperial' aura the city retained? or plain big, as in scale, or in trying to encompass all and everyone?

Perhaps its because BA is quite detached from the rest of the world it feels not as exciting as other cities in North America, Europe and Australia. (Not been to Asia so I can't really compare.
 
After a little more than one week in Spain in may be premature to comment - but when has that stopped me!

In Spain after Vietnam, Canada and Argentina.

I'm still suffering the shock of First World prices after enjoying Third World prices.

You can tell Spain has a strong "Safety Net" because you would never know from walking in the streets that there is 25% unemployment. We will only see the true end game when the government is forced to rein in the Safety Net benefits.

First impressions: Spain is in the First World - things work, the streets are clean. Few broken pavements. Low noise pollution. The calming effect of clean streets, etc. is something I really enjoy in the First World. The endless traffic noises, trash everywhere, broken pavements of Argentina and Vietnam is tiresome.

Food: Spain reminds me of Argentina in its small variety of choices. The Argentine supermarket in general carries two items: hamburger patties and dulce de leche derived products. The Spanish supermarket also carries two items: 100 variations of ham and 100 varieties of flan: chocolate flan, flan with a cookie, coffee flan, lemon flan... OK I'm exaggerating a little but you get the idea. This is the country of the Museo de Jamon after all. What is it with Ham here - with all the Moorish blood walking around this is just plain wrong! But the supermarket here - like the ones in Corte Ingles are far superior to Argentina ones in terms of variety and quality of what is on offer. Wine is very good and cheap. Prices are lower than Canada in the supermarket. The quality is a little better than North America. I also have more confidence that the food is not as adulterated as North America - but I have no proof of this. Canada imports most of its food from the US.

But Vietnam is far superior for food, the food is more interesting, healthier and a lot cheaper! I already miss the fresh spring rolls with the glorious flagrance of the fresh herbs. Papaya salad, Mangos. 50 cent sandwiches of fresh baguette, herbs and pate... Restaurants are expensive in Argentina, Spain and Canada but not in Vietnam. And Vietnam has the best food of the four!

People: Of the four countries the people are rude in all of them except Canada. Compared to Canadians of course almost any nationality is rude. The Spanish strike me as nervous and not really social. In Latin America I would often make conversation with the taxi drivers in my basic Spanish - in Spain no. The Vietnamese only see foreigners as ATMs, either they have cash or they don't and they leave it at that.
 
Dear forum members, let us stay calm, respect opinions and not accuse each other of being K, as apart from a old, grumpy former exile in France I have never met someone who showed unconditional support for this government...! A very weird thing, indeed. In many European countries there's often this strong and often unforgiving socialist- conservative divide but in Argentina people are pretty realistic with a mentality that implies that all politicians are thieves anyway - which happens in every country but it is just so obvious here, and I happen to like cynicism about politics, which is absent in the minds of many strongly polarized Europeans I have met.

Anyway. What I am seeing here on this last page is another argument that in my personal view would be way too unforgiving to Buenos Aires.

I am more conscious than ever of the negative sides of Buenos Aires and I would agree that it can be a bit repetitve place every now and then. But, please, when somebody starts favouring an extremely dull, superficial, children's museum-like, Disney city as Barcelona over Buenos Aires, I think you have just missed the essence of the capital of Argentina. I invite you to go and live in a place like Vienna. Beautiful museums, nice architecture too, more of a traditional European capital. After a while you will find out that in essence many of these European glorious capitals are all the same and rather boring and monotonous, without life, without a certain spice to it.

Buenos Aires is a very young place without a lot of history - point taken - and will never be able to compete with the historical castles in Spanish cities and the war memorials in northern France. It's the New World, get over it. Many here come from the U.S. - well, I am from Europe and apart from a couple of art deco skyscrapers in New York I find the whole of North America incredibly uninspiring in terms of history and architecture. You were born out of European civilization, the European tribes have dominated the world until recent times and it is logical that you would find most of the attractions on that continent.

Buenos Aires is unique because its legacy is completely focused on a Golden Age during which there were almost no limits and when an aristocracy with unforeseen wealth decided to mirror European culture and architecture in Argentina as a way of progress - it is not Las Vegas after all. The interesting product of inviting so many architects from different nations is that architectural styles mixed and there is simply no place in the world with so much diversity when it comes to fin de siecle beauty. Yes, the country also saw the massive arrival of poor, displaced Europeans who came under false promises, and apart from the beautiful buildings not much was done to get rid of the poverty that was already rampant under the criollo population before the masses of tanos and the who-knows-what arrived.

Anyway, of course you already know about the architecture in Buenos Aires. Maybe these glamorous looks were the reason you originally moved here. You also know that it is not always being conserved that well, and of course, this may give you a million different reasons to continue complaining about everything that sucks out there. One thing I got tired of in Argentina is seeying people always complaining, complaining, complaining about everything. A bit of an Italian influence, it seems. Expats are not the only ones committed to that vice.

Buenos Aires is so much more interesting to me, than let us say, Barcelona, because of the sheer diversity of architecture and its weird spread around the city. It is one of those rare places in the world where you can often find treasures in shaky streets in distant neighbourhoods, among the weirdest 70s appartment buildings. As soon as you get used to the lack of order in how Buenos Aires looks, you get to appreciate the beauty of its ugliness. In cities like Barcelona all you find is a couple of special buildings among historical buildings that all look the same, all employ the same, lets say Catalan/Spanish style. These cities havent experienced the unique boom that Buenos Aires have and you won't find streets over there that combine the most divergent styles. These cities do not have that typical melancholical feel to it, that is why I say they feel flat, superficial to me. In Buenos Aires I love walking in places like Lezama Park and being able to recognize both the melancholic poverty of historical immigrants that once lived close, and the wealth of people who had their own little American dreams in Buenos Aires, such as the Biscuit Factory near La Boca.

Yes, some 'Parisian' buildings in Recoleta may have this Disney feel to it. If you live in Buenos Aires, you may ask yourself after a while, why am I not going to Paris then? They have more. And its French. Authentic. But you are not going to find the mix of millions of European immigrants who really shaped a country and among whom some built their own fortunes and threw up buildings from all kinds of cultural backgroudns in the city. Much more so than in the U.S..... I think..... in America, there were way more immigrants and from many more different origins, but they were kind of sucked in a homogenized American culture from the beginning. Argentina was practically an empty country without a lot of character and was profoundly influenced by its own waves of immigration, which were uniquely overwhelming. Seeing people talking Spanish like Napolitan fishermen may seem 'nothing special' to some of us, but I never stop being interested in the cultural impact of that good old immigration that can be seen here every day, in its barrios, in its people...

Whenever I get a bit bored of the cute cobble-stone streets of San Telmo, I take a subte and enjoy the wide avenues and beautiful parks of Palermo, and whenever I feel like it I make a little trip to whatever part of the city that has a unique feel. To me, because of that and because of its size (size with a lot of character, because cities like Lima and Mexico City are big too, but there is much less to see) Buenos Aires is such a vibrant world class city, not boring at all, full of life but also quiet whenever I need it, depends on the area. In many European cities, I adore the historical value of monuments and things like that, but I always start missing the diversity in the city of BA that is the product of the historical competition of European nations and cultures. I like our European civilization and especially in that nineteenth century period, so I am biased in a way. If you are more interested in clubbing than in sightseeing, maybe Barcelona would be a better place. They also have a beach. But in Buenos Aires I can simply be a tourist every day and encounter new suprises again and again. And I just love the melancholical feel of the more southern barrios.

I'd love to explain you in more detail why apart from its unforgiving negative aspects, Buenos Aires is my favourite city in the world (read: not the most beautiful, not the most diverse when it comes to food and non Western cultures, etc, but just the most appealing), just ask me. If you want to disagree, disagree. But do not write off our positive opinions on the basis of 'yeah hes probably a K supporter' because every person who lives in Buenos Aires becomes cynical in some ways. However, people who (not necessarily specifically someone in this thread, but more the general negative crowd I would imagine) forget about the beauty and attractiveness of the place, and just shout their desilusion all the time, please allow for a bit of sunlight in your life....

Time to freshen up some of your own recuerdos....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrS6aNtkOtU
 
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