So are the borders opening now? I thought cases were exploding?

EL_TIGRE_de_Tigre

Registered
Yeah, I am an idiot I got excited reading the headline. " Only Argentina’s citizens and residents and tourists from neighboring countries will be allowed to enter. ". Fml.
Don't be so hard on yourself.

You probably read a headline and posted a story without reading it.

(If you did what I think you did, it does not make you an idiot. It makes you human - We are all human.)

Simply read the story before you post it next time and you will save yourself some aggravation.
 

EL_TIGRE_de_Tigre

Registered
Of course there will always be some who want to travel as I stated. But it’s important to stay conscious of the fact that a few rich, young, fearless and entitled North Americans are not the bulk of the global industry or even the Argentine inbound tourism industry. Nor are those who book a flight to nowhere (its not like there are 20 frequencies a day hauling people around the sky on a jolly...) representative of global demand.
As an example looks at hotel occupancy rates in Mexico - ghost towns compared to pre-COVID, even though there is nothing stopping determined visitors from the US or Europe from coming. The numbers globally simply speak for themselves.
WOW! - You have an axe to grind with people who have money.

Some people with money do have more of it than brains. But there are quite a few people who have a lot of intelligence that equals or exceeds their bank balance. And I'll add, not everyone with a big balance is unable to be kind. courteous and above all else, humble.

It's not a crime to be loaded if you accumulated your fortune through wholesome endeavors.

It's a crime to mis treat others thinking others are not as good. And, quite a few poor people are famous for this kind of behavior as well.

Stereotyping will get nowhere as will jealousy.
 

Greg S

Registered
Of course there will always be some who want to travel as I stated. But it’s important to stay conscious of the fact that a few rich, young, fearless and entitled North Americans are not the bulk of the global industry or even the Argentine inbound tourism industry. Nor are those who book a flight to nowhere (its not like there are 20 frequencies a day hauling people around the sky on a jolly...) representative of global demand.
As an example looks at hotel occupancy rates in Mexico - ghost towns compared to pre-COVID, even though there is nothing stopping determined visitors from the US or Europe from coming. The numbers globally simply speak for themselves - wanting to travel and actually traveling are two separate themes.
Re: "few rich and entitled ... are not the bulk of the global industry"

They are--and always have been--all that matters. In everything but religion and war. You need cheap human fodder for both.
 

antipodean

Registered
WOW! - You have an axe to grind with people who have money.

Some people with money do have more of it than brains. But there are quite a few people who have a lot of intelligence that equals or exceeds their bank balance. And I'll add, not everyone with a big balance is unable to be kind. courteous and above all else, humble.

It's not a crime to be loaded if you accumulated your fortune through wholesome endeavors.

It's a crime to mis treat others thinking others are not as good. And, quite a few poor people are famous for this kind of behavior as well.

Stereotyping will get nowhere as will jealousy.
Not sure how you figure I have an axe to grind against those with money - fair to say I have an axe to grind against those who think the world revolves around them and overstate their importance, wherever and whoever they may be. You don't need to be entitled to be rich.

If the described group of people who want so desperately to travel (and most importantly actually do travel) during the COVID pandemic, and really do make up the mass of mass tourism then simply put, where are they? (Not here in Argentina obviously, but in the locations which they have had access to all along - like Mexico who continues to achieve barely 40% hotel occupation since COVID or airlines who can't even fill flights forcing them to axe and continue to reduce capacity even between and within unrestricted markets? How can Argentine hope to be any different especially when it is further from these markets and pre-covid had much smaller inbounds from these markets compared to Mexico/ Carribbean?)

Assuming everyone who has money is travelling and will travel is ludicrous. Assuming that the described demographic make up a chunk of the numbers needed to get meaningful economic benefit in an industry designed around far larger volumes is equally ludicrous - it is like saying "my $10,000 is worth more than the $100,000,000 everyone else and my $10,000 is going to save some third world country." It is not and it will not, hence don't be shocked when there is not a red carpet welcome tailor made for you. Brazilian tourists on the other hand, now there is a meaningful volume that adds up to a more meaningful amount, at least in the eyes of this government. Hence this stupid and non-sensical policy.

Sometimes people need a reminder if they are but a drop in the ocean or the ocean itself when asking things "why can't I do what I want right now" - governments (in this country anyway) like airlines, like tourism industries, tend to think more about oceans than drops.
 

Greg S

Registered
Not sure how you figure I have an axe to grind against those with money - fair to say I have an axe to grind against those who think the world revolves around them and overstate their importance, wherever and whoever they may be. You don't need to be entitled to be rich.

If the described group of people who want so desperately to travel (and most importantly actually do travel) during the COVID pandemic, and really do make up the mass of mass tourism then simply put, where are they? (Not here in Argentina obviously, but in the locations which they have had access to all along - like Mexico who continues to achieve barely 40% hotel occupation since COVID or airlines who can't even fill flights forcing them to axe and continue to reduce capacity even between and within unrestricted markets? How can Argentine hope to be any different especially when it is further from these markets and pre-covid had much smaller inbounds from these markets compared to Mexico/ Carribbean?)

Assuming everyone who has money is travelling and will travel is ludicrous. Assuming that the described demographic make up a chunk of the numbers needed to get meaningful economic benefit in an industry designed around far larger volumes is equally ludicrous - it is like saying "my $10,000 is worth more than the $100,000,000 everyone else and my $10,000 is going to save some third world country." It is not and it will not, hence don't be shocked when there is not a red carpet welcome tailor made for you. Brazilian tourists on the other hand, now there is a meaningful volume that adds up to a more meaningful amount, at least in the eyes of this government. Hence this stupid and non-sensical policy.

Sometimes people need a reminder if they are but a drop in the ocean or the ocean itself when asking things "why can't I do what I want right now" - governments (in this country anyway) like airlines, like tourism industries, tend to think more about oceans than drops.
Re: "governments (in this country anyway) like airlines, like tourism industries, tend to think more about oceans than drops."

Then why endanger your precious ocean with a few well-heeled Brazilian tourist "drops" by allowing tourists from neighboring countries? Because everyone likes $$$. Even socialists.
 

antipodean

Registered
Re: "governments (in this country anyway) like airlines, like tourism industries, tend to think more about oceans than drops."

Then why endanger your precious ocean with a few well-heeled Brazilian tourist "drops" by allowing tourists from neighboring countries? Because everyone likes $$$. Even socialists.
I will use numbers to put it into some perspective, since usually these have nothing to do with silly labels like "socialist".
In 2018/19 Argentina got about the following numbers of tourists from the following countries, amongst others, out of about 5-6m in total:
  • Brazil - 2m
  • Uruguay - 1.1m
  • Chile - 1.0m
  • Paraguay - 0.5m
  • USA or Bolivia - 0.3m each
  • The vast majority of other arrivals are from other Latin American countries
When we add COVID into the mix for 2020/1 we are talking about only a fraction of these numbers as we have seen from inbound pax numbers in other markets open for tourism during this time. The further the distance, the smaller the fraction. Take a look at the Maldives, Turkey, UAE etc. and tell me what % in 2020 are coming from the USA versus 2019, despite US travellers having every ability to travel there if they want.

As someone whose business is related to travel in Argentina and worldwide, I can safely also add that it is not "upper class" Brazilians (or Uruguayans, or Chileans, or Peruvians etc) making up these numbers - for Argentina the vast majority of inbounds are squarely in the middle class tourist box hence yet they still have money spend. Frankly speaking they will spend more on "things" (like a pair of Nike shoes that are more expensive in Brazil) than North Americans who instead prefer to spend on "experiences" (most of which are closed for business at the moment.)

For those with a selective style of reading, refer by to my repeated statements that the Argentine government policy is silly and serves no practical purpose by keeping anyone out in the name of COVID. That's my personal opinion. But the matter of fact is that this government begs to differ and has its own logic for which I try to explain before we get carried away thinking that by changing this policy to allow US and other tourists would actually materially benefit or "save" Argentina given the context and evidence from other countries who are open for business. That is just not true, so don't expect a red carpet welcome.
 
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EL_TIGRE_de_Tigre

Registered
Not sure how you figure I have an axe to grind against those with money - fair to say I have an axe to grind against those who think the world revolves around them and overstate their importance, wherever and whoever they may be. You don't need to be entitled to be rich.

If the described group of people who want so desperately to travel (and most importantly actually do travel) during the COVID pandemic, and really do make up the mass of mass tourism then simply put, where are they? (Not here in Argentina obviously, but in the locations which they have had access to all along - like Mexico who continues to achieve barely 40% hotel occupation since COVID or airlines who can't even fill flights forcing them to axe and continue to reduce capacity even between and within unrestricted markets? How can Argentine hope to be any different especially when it is further from these markets and pre-covid had much smaller inbounds from these markets compared to Mexico/ Carribbean?)

Assuming everyone who has money is travelling and will travel is ludicrous. Assuming that the described demographic make up a chunk of the numbers needed to get meaningful economic benefit in an industry designed around far larger volumes is equally ludicrous - it is like saying "my $10,000 is worth more than the $100,000,000 everyone else and my $10,000 is going to save some third world country." It is not and it will not, hence don't be shocked when there is not a red carpet welcome tailor made for you. Brazilian tourists on the other hand, now there is a meaningful volume that adds up to a more meaningful amount, at least in the eyes of this government. Hence this stupid and non-sensical policy.

Sometimes people need a reminder if they are but a drop in the ocean or the ocean itself when asking things "why can't I do what I want right now" - governments (in this country anyway) like airlines, like tourism industries, tend to think more about oceans than drops.
I read your post and I enjoyed it.
 

antipodean

Registered

The government expects 100,000 Brazilians, average stay of 4 days and spend of US$200,000,000 (or US$2000 / pax)
(They just don't tell us over what timeframe they expect this horde of 100,000... especially with only 24 hotels allowed to receive them)
 

Greg S

Registered
Very true. Communism was funded by bankers- every one who's not at the top is a slave to the state who get rich off of the working labor
Re: “every one who's not at the top is a slave”

Yes. This is fundamentally true globally. This reality may be sugar-coated in the West, but the smart, connected, ambitious always win. There is Mr Bezos and their are the folks (soon to be machines) that pack his many, many boxes.

I’m simply suggesting that everyone try to be a winner, rather than moaning about being a loser. Oh, I know, there are plenty of excuses why this isn’t always possible. And once you start looking for them, you will never stop.
 
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