So are the borders opening now? I thought cases were exploding?

Greg S

Registered
I will use numbers to put it into some perspective, since usually these have nothing to do with silly labels like "socialist".
In 2018/19 Argentina got about the following numbers of tourists from the following countries, amongst others, out of about 5-6m in total:
  • Brazil - 2m
  • Uruguay - 1.1m
  • Chile - 1.0m
  • Paraguay - 0.5m
  • USA or Bolivia - 0.3m each
  • The vast majority of other arrivals are from other Latin American countries
When we add COVID into the mix for 2020/1 we are talking about only a fraction of these numbers as we have seen from inbound pax numbers in other markets open for tourism during this time. The further the distance, the smaller the fraction. Take a look at the Maldives, Turkey, UAE etc. and tell me what % in 2020 are coming from the USA versus 2019, despite US travellers having every ability to travel there if they want.

As someone whose business is related to travel in Argentina and worldwide, I can safely also add that it is not "upper class" Brazilians (or Uruguayans, or Chileans, or Peruvians etc) making up these numbers - for Argentina the vast majority of inbounds are squarely in the middle class tourist box hence yet they still have money spend. Frankly speaking they will spend more on "things" (like a pair of Nike shoes that are more expensive in Brazil) than North Americans who instead prefer to spend on "experiences" (most of which are closed for business at the moment.)

For those with a selective style of reading, refer by to my repeated statements that the Argentine government policy is silly and serves no practical purpose by keeping anyone out in the name of COVID. That's my personal opinion. But the matter of fact is that this government begs to differ and has its own logic for which I try to explain before we get carried away thinking that by changing this policy to allow US and other tourists would actually materially benefit or "save" Argentina given the context and evidence from other countries who are open for business. That is just not true, so don't expect a red carpet welcome.
Re “don't expect a red carpet welcome.”

Well, ok. Let’s see if I can arrange that for a wealthy party of 10 friends who want to visit CABA from NYC in Jan., assuming El Presidente so decrees. I’ll be back.
 

EL_TIGRE_de_Tigre

Registered
Re: “every one who's not at the top is a slave”

Yes. This is fundamentally true globally. This reality may be sugar-coated in the West, but the smart, connected, ambitious always win. There is Mr Bezos and their are the folks (soon to be machines) that pack his many, many boxes.

I’m simply suggesting that everyone try to be a winner, rather than moaning about being a loser. Oh, I know, there are plenty of excuses why this isn’t always possible. And once you start looking for them, you will never stop.
BINGO! Instead of wasting your time lamenting how bad it is for me. Do something about it. GET BUSY!
 

EL_TIGRE_de_Tigre

Registered
I better like this. No one else will!
Greg,

I am a wildly successful person.

I apologize to no one for having so much.

I have worked very hard and risked a lot for my prosperity and success in this life. Nobody gave me a break or a freebie along the way.

When other people were sleeping. I stayed away and I worked.

When other people enjoyed their weekends. I did not. I worked.

When other people were taking vacations, I did not take one. I worked.

(I have worked 80 and 90 hour weeks for months on end. Thankfully, I don't do that anymore, but it was a difference maker in my life.)

There is a pattern here ... right? Darn right there is! Instead of relaxing, I was shaking and moving. Getting ahead in life.

I didn't play it safe working for someone else, making them rich. I didn't waste my time, selling it by the hour to the man.

I worked for me since I dropped out of college. I sold my first business in my early 30's. Then I started my next.

I used everything I learned in business # 1 ... to create business # 2.

Business # 1 was pretty good, but business # 2 is a GEM. I can't tell you how incredible it is.

I discovered the financial markets in my teens and have I have been thriving in them since my mid twenties.

I am blessed to be so successful, so young in life.

I pray to God he lets me live a long time, because now that I am on top of the mountain, I just want to enjoy the view.

Anytime I become aware of a complainer who wants financial equality, or is upset by another's success ... I simply laugh to myself.

Financial equality isn't given to you because you ask, or demand it. YOU EARN IT.

FYI >>> I am a very ordinary person. I have no super level of intelligence or skill sets. I simply rolled up my sleeves and put in the time on a couple of my business ideas that turned to gold because of my stick to it!
 

antipodean

Registered
Re “don't expect a red carpet welcome.”

Well, ok. Let’s see if I can arrange that for a wealthy party of 10 friends who want to visit CABA from NYC in Jan., assuming El Presidente so decrees. I’ll be back.
Go for it, I really hope he does decree a change to the border rules. We are almost in November and have not yet had our first Brazilian test-tourist. At the moment the government are talking about the "next step" in opening tourism being limited to other Latin American countries (I hear, Peru, Colombia, Mexico.) They use typically vague words (e.g. saying "no" in a nice way) towards opening to the rest of the world, pre-empting that the second peak of COVID expected in the Northern Hemisphere will be a barrier to further openings. Either way I would avoid non-refundable lodging arrangements at this time!

On a side note, there have been numerous enquiries by foreign individuals on non-official business wanting to enter Argentina using private aviation since the quarantine began. To my knowledge all have been denied as no option available to facilitate even though this very small segment of people can actually ensure low-risk to other travellers and exposed personnel as well as guarantee a near immediate MEDEVAC in case they were to fall ill in order to pose no (or low) burden on the state and its public or private health resources. A completely different reality to those of more modest affluence who would arrive commercial. Yet those red carpets in the FBO terminals remain rolled up nonetheless, nothing to do with getting busy or not it is just a fact. One can make all the plans / charters one wants but it does not change this policy or their approach to policy making until something actually changes. Trying to flex individual "wealth" on a public forum as somehow being relevant to this government policy just looks silly given the facts unless one has somehow managed to buy their way in around the rules over all these months? Didn't think so.
 

Jerbo

Registered
I will use numbers to put it into some perspective, since usually these have nothing to do with silly labels like "socialist".
In 2018/19 Argentina got about the following numbers of tourists from the following countries, amongst others, out of about 5-6m in total:
  • Brazil - 2m
  • Uruguay - 1.1m
  • Chile - 1.0m
  • Paraguay - 0.5m
  • USA or Bolivia - 0.3m each
  • The vast majority of other arrivals are from other Latin American countries
When we add COVID into the mix for 2020/1 we are talking about only a fraction of these numbers as we have seen from inbound pax numbers in other markets open for tourism during this time. The further the distance, the smaller the fraction. Take a look at the Maldives, Turkey, UAE etc. and tell me what % in 2020 are coming from the USA versus 2019, despite US travellers having every ability to travel there if they want.

As someone whose business is related to travel in Argentina and worldwide, I can safely also add that it is not "upper class" Brazilians (or Uruguayans, or Chileans, or Peruvians etc) making up these numbers - for Argentina the vast majority of inbounds are squarely in the middle class tourist box hence yet they still have money spend. Frankly speaking they will spend more on "things" (like a pair of Nike shoes that are more expensive in Brazil) than North Americans who instead prefer to spend on "experiences" (most of which are closed for business at the moment.)

For those with a selective style of reading, refer by to my repeated statements that the Argentine government policy is silly and serves no practical purpose by keeping anyone out in the name of COVID. That's my personal opinion. But the matter of fact is that this government begs to differ and has its own logic for which I try to explain before we get carried away thinking that by changing this policy to allow US and other tourists would actually materially benefit or "save" Argentina given the context and evidence from other countries who are open for business. That is just not true, so don't expect a red carpet welcome.
Wow. The US only provides about 5% of tourist visitors to Argentina? That stat is way, way lower than I thought.
 

cbbsas

Registered
Greg,

I am a wildly successful person.

I apologize to no one for having so much.

I have worked very hard and risked a lot for my prosperity and success in this life. Nobody gave me a break or a freebie along the way.

When other people were sleeping. I stayed away and I worked.

When other people enjoyed their weekends. I did not. I worked.

When other people were taking vacations, I did not take one. I worked.

(I have worked 80 and 90 hour weeks for months on end. Thankfully, I don't do that anymore, but it was a difference maker in my life.)

There is a pattern here ... right? Darn right there is! Instead of relaxing, I was shaking and moving. Getting ahead in life.

I didn't play it safe working for someone else, making them rich. I didn't waste my time, selling it by the hour to the man.

I worked for me since I dropped out of college. I sold my first business in my early 30's. Then I started my next.

I used everything I learned in business # 1 ... to create business # 2.

Business # 1 was pretty good, but business # 2 is a GEM. I can't tell you how incredible it is.

I discovered the financial markets in my teens and have I have been thriving in them since my mid twenties.

I am blessed to be so successful, so young in life.

I pray to God he lets me live a long time, because now that I am on top of the mountain, I just want to enjoy the view.

Anytime I become aware of a complainer who wants financial equality, or is upset by another's success ... I simply laugh to myself.

Financial equality isn't given to you because you ask, or demand it. YOU EARN IT.

FYI >>> I am a very ordinary person. I have no super level of intelligence or skill sets. I simply rolled up my sleeves and put in the time on a couple of my business ideas that turned to gold because of my stick to it!
You really fly the flag for meritocracy and I think it should be pointed out that there are many schools of thought (which I very much subscribe to) that say meritocracy is a myth. Not to lessen your achievements but just to balance this brag fest out, no offence :)
 

antipodean

Registered
Wow. The US only provides about 5% of tourist visitors to Argentina? That stat is way, way lower than I thought.
Here is extract from Migraciones 2018 which gives some insights on who is doing the travelling into and out of Argentina.

Even with 5%, the US is still the top country from outside the region but obviously a huge gap when compared to the numbers of any neighbouring countries except Bolivia.

In 2019 there was actually a fairly big drop in tourist numbers overall from non Latin-American countries and unsurprisingly numbers vary slightly depending on which ministry/ report you look at.

You can see from total movements in and out of the country to have an idea on what proportion of these movements are related to tourism vs. other motives (education, work, business, health, transit, residents travelling etc.)

Also I throw in the stats on how many residency permits were given out in 2018 ...it gives an idea about the size and composition of our expat community. Maybe we should have a Spanish and Chinese language version of this site to be more representative to all BA expats... ;-)

Screenshot 2020-10-30 at 18.16.52.pngScreenshot 2020-10-30 at 18.16.31.pngScreenshot 2020-10-30 at 18.22.58.png
 

Greg S

Registered
Go for it, I really hope he does decree a change to the border rules. We are almost in November and have not yet had our first Brazilian test-tourist. At the moment the government are talking about the "next step" in opening tourism being limited to other Latin American countries (I hear, Peru, Colombia, Mexico.) They use typically vague words (e.g. saying "no" in a nice way) towards opening to the rest of the world, pre-empting that the second peak of COVID expected in the Northern Hemisphere will be a barrier to further openings. Either way I would avoid non-refundable lodging arrangements at this time!

On a side note, there have been numerous enquiries by foreign individuals on non-official business wanting to enter Argentina using private aviation since the quarantine began. To my knowledge all have been denied as no option available to facilitate even though this very small segment of people can actually ensure low-risk to other travellers and exposed personnel as well as guarantee a near immediate MEDEVAC in case they were to fall ill in order to pose no (or low) burden on the state and its public or private health resources. A completely different reality to those of more modest affluence who would arrive commercial. Yet those red carpets in the FBO terminals remain rolled up nonetheless, nothing to do with getting busy or not it is just a fact. One can make all the plans / charters one wants but it does not change this policy or their approach to policy making until something actually changes. Trying to flex individual "wealth" on a public forum as somehow being relevant to this government policy just looks silly given the facts unless one has somehow managed to buy their way in around the rules over all these months? Didn't think so.
Re "Trying to flex individual "wealth" on a public forum as somehow being relevant to this government policy"

Of course it never is! Esp in Latin America.
 

Greg S

Registered
You really fly the flag for meritocracy and I think it should be pointed out that there are many schools of thought (which I very much subscribe to) that say meritocracy is a myth. Not to lessen your achievements but just to balance this brag fest out, no offence :)
That's as good an excuse for mediocrity as any other, I guess.
 
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