South Venezue...Argentina now in the top 5 globally in terms of daily infections and deaths from COVID

[FrankPintor]

Regardless of who Guaido is and who funds him... what other official opposition exists in that so-called democracy of the people? Somehow I doubt the Maduro regime achieves 96% satisfaction of the people when even in utterly boring and perfect countries ruling parties fail to get more than 50-60%.

Venezuela is a humanitarian issue first and foremost and is a perfect example of a state hijacked by narcos and mafiosos who live with impunity and need chaos to keep the power their business needs to enrich themselves. In 2020 it has nothing to do with cold-war era paradigms or conspiracies.

Guaido's claim to legitimacy expires with the election of a new National Assembly, scheduled for December. I'm not taking issue with you, I'm just pointing out the unfortunate reality: there's no opposition. And no, Maduro would be lucky to get 4% satisfaction.

Humanitarian issues, yes, mafiosos and enchufados yes, in spades... but narcos? The accusation has been out there for a long time, the "cartel de los soles" and so on.

But let's say you want to transport drugs, unless you create your own submarine navy (and I haven't seen reports of interceptions of submarines coming from Venezuela yet), you actually need a functioning transport system, cargo ships and planes, to move the stuff. And Venezuela doesn't have that. It's been practically cut off from the rest of the world for the last 5 years or so. Sure, you could load up a light plane from time to time, but it's small-time and in danger of being intercepted and shot down. Countries with big ports and airports and lots of traffic are much more useful, think Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru. The US navy has been cruising up and down the Caribbean in front of Venezuela's coast and all it's caught is covid. Sorry, I'm just not buying it.

 

[Dougie]

Frankly speaking, abuses should be condemned outright anywhere at any opportunity to do so.
This was the opportunity to condemn those taking place in Venezuela, the country that has more deaths at the hands of the police/ security forces every year than any other country on earth (that is not a warzone... but even then, deaths per 10million more than double those of Syria)
It was not only Guaido (if not the president, then the opposition of Venezuela) asking the same questions. Many domestic elements and journalists were doing the same.
Even AMLO / Mexico and other "leftist" countries condemn Venezuela. Why is it so difficult for this government to also condemn it in a clear no vueltas kind of way too?

That's true but it's all done in bad faith. Most governments only denounce human rights violations when it's done by their enemies. If Maduro was giving sweet deals to Chevron and Exxon Mobile you can be sure that there wouldn't be US pressure to oust him. Let's call these human rights denouncements by governments what they are...a sham.

Not saying Maduro is a good guy. He's a Narco who is emptying the country of any remaining wealth into his pockets and that of his military buddies.

FrankPintor, in every Central/South American country there are government officials who are involved in narco trafficking. Judges, governors of states, high ranking military officials, police, and even on occasion presidents.

 

[FrankPintor]

Not saying Maduro is a good guy. He's a Narco who is emptying the country of any remaining wealth into his pockets and that of his military buddies.

FrankPintor, in every Central/South American country there are government officials who are involved in narco trafficking. Judges, governors of states, high ranking military officials, police, and even on occasion presidents.

Dougie, maybe in almost every country, all over the world. But if you were the boss of a cartel, would you prefer to ship through a country with lots of connections and transport links, or one with almost none? I think it's pretty obvious which you would pick, but if anyone would like to enlighten me otherwise, I'm listening. Until then, I think the concept of Venezuela as a narco hub is a red herring.

 

[semigoodlookin]

If the USA, UK, and EU are supposedly the standard for Western democracies and are still "apologists" and business partners for much worse human rights abusers like Saudi Arabia, then the bar is already quite low for Argentina. All Argentina did was refuse to sign a piece of paper (figuratively speaking), those other "democracies" are actively arming and funding Saudi Arabia.

But what about? Must be the most frequent sentiment on this forum. All the above is correct, and? Such actions deserve condemnations across the board. A thread on the US and EU cozying up to Saudi Arabia would be plenty interesting, but what does it have to do with Argentina’s stance on Venezuela?

 

[antipodean]

Humanitarian issues, yes, mafiosos and enchufados yes, in spades... but narcos? The accusation has been out there for a long time, the "cartel de los soles" and so on.

But let's say you want to transport drugs, unless you create your own submarine navy (and I haven't seen reports of interceptions of submarines coming from Venezuela yet), you actually need a functioning transport system, cargo ships and planes, to move the stuff. And Venezuela doesn't have that. It's been practically cut off from the rest of the world for the last 5 years or so. Sure, you could load up a light plane from time to time, but it's small-time and in danger of being intercepted and shot down. Countries with big ports and airports and lots of traffic are much more useful, think Colombia, Ecuador, and Peru. The US navy has been cruising up and down the Caribbean in front of Venezuela's coast and all it's caught is covid. Sorry, I'm just not buying it.

Venezuela arrests three soldiers over 1.3-tonne Air France cocaine haul

Venezuela has arrested three National Guard officials for alleged involvement in smuggling 1.3 tonnes of cocaine on an Air France flight from Caracas to Paris, the South American nation's public prosecutor's office said on Sunday.

www.reuters.com

You don't get more than a tonne of cocaine onto a commercial airliner at any major airport without some tools from the state (getting them off is comparatively easy.) I remember the investigation at CDG and the AF flights (and others) were being used to smuggle drugs at an industrial scale for years, with many arrested on either side of the Atlantic. AF actually only just gave up on CCS last week after over 60 years serving Venezuela.

Ghost flights: Drugs, terrorists and dirty money

FEW passengers have ever been able to get on board this top-secret flight route, and those who succeeded were not ordinary travellers.

www.news.com.au

You don't get regular flights between Damascus and Caracas because of tourism demand, and flights don't get approved without some tools from the state. Now I think the flights are operated by Mahan Air of Iran, another state that needs hard currency however it can get it.

Venezuela first lady's nephews jailed for drugs

The two men were found guilty of conspiring to smuggle cocaine into the United States.

www.bbc.com

Maduro’s nephew had 300lb of drugs at home

Police found more than 300lb of cocaine and heroin when they raided a house owned by a nephew of the president of Venezuela. The raid at the Casa de Campo mansion in the Dominican Republic turned up

www.thetimes.co.uk

Family members of the first lady with hundreds of kilos of drugs in an $18m beach home... I doubt they paid for themselves or moved themselves without resources of a state.

Not to mention FARC having a strong presence inside Venezuela - they did not exactly invite themselves across the border and their sources of finances are well known. Again could not happen without the tools of the state.

You would be surprised but the majority of drugs are not moved by commercial flights or pax swallowing condoms full of white powder. They come as "cargo" or hidden in ships (oil, gas etc.) from one dodgy country to another dodgy country before getting distributed onto another less dodgy country until they make their way to market. For example, Guinea-Bissau is one of the worst countries on earth for narco-trafficing and OXB is hardly a commercial air hub nor is the port an international trade hub. Drug trade, like all illicit trades, thrive inside a vacuum of law and order.
Argentina is also one of the world's biggest drug exporters, especially via the ports of Rosario and Santa Fe. Argentina does not produce or grow cocaine and Rosario is hardly the gateway to the world.

 

[FrankPintor]

OK, I'll try to respond "por partes" as they say in Spanish (even if it's not Rioplatense):

You don't get more than a tonne of cocaine onto a commercial airliner at any major airport without some tools from the state (getting them off is comparatively easy.) I remember the investigation at CDG and the AF flights (and others) were being used to smuggle drugs at an industrial scale for years, with many arrested on either side of the Atlantic. AF actually only just gave up on CCS last week after over 60 years serving Venezuela.

Sure, I remember the reports as well, a bunch of people were implicated, but you're talking about something that happened in 2013. it's not relevant anymore.

You don't get regular flights between Damascus and Caracas because of tourism demand, and flights don't get approved without some tools from the state. Now I think the flights are operated by Mahan Air of Iran, another state that needs hard currency however it can get it.

Nobody imagined that these flights were for tourism. Now you're saying that, while possession of coke in either of the two countries you mention could separate you from your head, they're complicit in transshipping coke. OK, why not? I got that.

Family members of the first lady with hundreds of kilos of drugs in an $18m beach home... I doubt they paid for themselves or moved themselves without resources of a state.

Yes, yes I know, "Los Narcosobrinos". And the First Lady's house in Los Canales in Higuerote was robbed and trashed. Oh well. It's a failed state, what resources are you going on about?

Not to mention FARC having a strong presence inside Venezuela - they did not exactly invite themselves across the border and their sources of finances are well known. Again could not happen without the tools of the state.

Again, what state, what tools? You've never been there, right?

You would be surprised but the majority of drugs are not moved by commercial flights or pax swallowing condoms full of white powder. They come as "cargo" or hidden in ships (oil, gas etc.) from one dodgy country to another dodgy country before getting distributed onto another less dodgy country until they make their way to market. For example, Guinea-Bissau is one of the worst countries on earth for narco-trafficing and OXB is hardly a commercial air hub nor is the port an international trade hub. Drug trade, like all illicit trades, thrive inside a vacuum of law and order.
Argentina is also one of the world's biggest drug exporters, especially via the ports of Rosario and Santa Fe. Argentina does not produce or grow cocaine and Rosario is hardly the gateway to the world.

But you're just agreeing with me. "They come as "cargo" or hidden in ships". No shit, man. That's why the business needs big, as in really big commercial ports or airports with many many flights per week. No planes landing, and almost no ships docking in Venezuela. Not just for months, for years. Forget about it. Hey, I remember a link where I could see the ships waiting outside Puerto Cabello in Venezuela, I mean, you could sniff all the crap in the container yourself before those ships would dock. It's simply unfeasible, please stop now.

 

[antipodean]

Again, what state, what tools? You've never been there, right?

But you're just agreeing with me. "They come as "cargo" or hidden in ships". No shit, man. That's why the business needs big, as in really big commercial ports or airports with many many flights per week. No planes landing, and almost no ships docking in Venezuela. Not just for months, for years. Forget about it. Hey, I remember a link where I could see the ships waiting outside Puerto Cabello in Venezuela, I mean, you could sniff all the crap in the container yourself before those ships would dock. It's simply unfeasible, please stop now.

1. Yes, but in different times. I was almost born in Venezuela. An army with trucks to load on the drugs and a command to issue orders to load "unidentified" cargo. Customs officials ordered to turn a blind eye to inspecting a certain ship. A coast guard that is told to focus its limited resources on helping stuggling fishing boats rather than interceptions of suspicious craft. A weak state is about the only state that narco-trafficing can truly thrive in, but the state is still there and it is controlled by people who give the orders and stamp the permits.

2. Drug smuggling does not need big business volumes / commercial traffic to hide behind - it is simply not true unless you have some stats to back that up which I am unaware of. I work in the airport / cargo sector and have a fair idea about this subject and while it does happen and something to be aware of, it is not usually the biggest mover in terms of volume. A lot of rickity ships do dock in Venezuela where there is more than one port. Remember that almost all food and consumer items are imported in Venezuela. Also smaller ships often go out to meet bigger ships. Hence my example of Guinea Bissau and the West African link - they are not getting their by submarines or A380s. Venezuela is on every international red list for drug smuggling along with other countries with very weak transport and commercial links, and for a good reason.

A country whose only export has collapsed yet still has an elite and very wealth political class most likely has an alternative source of income.
Don't underestimate just how deep narcotrafficing permeates states and politicians in Latin America (even larger and more "stable" ones like Brazil...when some politician had a ranch with a private airstrip and an aircraft full of cocaine on it, an airstrip paid for with public money no less.)