The Guardian: "Time to challenge Argentina’s white European self-image, black history experts say"

Tres Picos

Registered
The racial delusion in Argentina was a germanic influence in the 30´of the XX century whose example to follow was Australia (see Macri´s speeches and plans: https://www.lanacion.com.ar/sociedad/de-la-economia-del-avestruz-a-la-del-canguro-por-que-no-somos-australia-y-que-necesitamos-para-serlo-nid2242557/) because, as a former colony of Spain, the policy was always the integration of the local populations. The same happened with former slaves. I posted some months ago a study that showed that about 15 or 20% (I do not remember) of its population has African gens.
In my personal case, I have Italian, French, Russian Jude, Polish and native american (mapuche) blood. My children has to add Chinese and Korean blood.
Yes, the Spanish were less averse to mixing with the local population than other European peoples such as the English and the French. What is the percent admixture in that 15-20% that have African ancestry and is that Northern (e.g. Berbers) or sub-Saharan? The Boers, for example, have slight African admixture, presumable San and Zulu, but it is slight making it almost imperceptible. Do you have a link to that study?
 

Tres Picos

Registered
Australia is a white settler colony with a very defined Anglocentric identity, while Argentina, despite the arrival of European boat people, has the same history of transculturation, racial mixing, and chaotic demographic changes as the rest of Latin America. The bitterness of the Euro-descendant elite of this country comes from the fact that it never lived up to the promise (or delusion) of becoming an "outpost of European civilization." Argentina is, and always will be, just a less poor country in a region of very poor countries.
Argentina had a very defined Spanish and later Spanish/Italian identity. Both are European cultures.
Yes, there was more racial mixing than between the British and the Aboriginals in Australia. But their respective civilisations can still be viewed as predominately European derived in ancestry and certainly in culture.
1. Argentinians were correct to view themselves as an offshoot of Europe even if they exhibited "bitterness" due to lack of economic, scientific, cultural production as you seem to say.
2. Much of the rest of the Latin America rankled against Argentina's sense of European identity by which they derived a sense of superiority.
3. Other European cultures, including its offshoots, derided Argentina for not being fully European.
All these 3 phenomenons occurred and all were grounded in reality.
 

Tres Picos

Registered
Good question, and I had to sit on it for a bit.

Down the list, I'd say more than a couple unique cultural elements exist, and they all had overlapping influence over other cultural elements. The gaucho (gil), the economic and logistical isolation, the "potencia mundial" failure complex, the "viveza" mentality previously discussed in a recent thread, the yerba mate, the fear of spices, the false sole proprietorship of dulce de leche, the (disputed) southernmost point on earth excluding Antarctica (but also including a very significant portion of Antarctica) and other diverse landscapes just hours of perilous off-roading away, the elitist B movies, the stamina of marathon queuing, the self-awarded PhD in economics, discussing the evils of Big Oil and Big Carrefour while padding the mattress with chica grande Franklins from the imperial US that stole their prosperity somehow.....

A peripheral outpost to me means something like Chinatown, or Little Mogadishu, not Argentina nor the portenios (nor the Aussies). Maybe if "New Mediterranea" surfaces somewhere, we have a peripheral outpost.

And the collapse...well...the boom and bust happened really quickly. I think the general and irreparable collapse of Argentina happened at a pace that did not coincide with the decline or collapse of the rest of the west, which, we can agree, is in progress.
Perhaps we should use the term "offshoot" rather than "outpost."

I'd say that all the European offshoots diverged and came up with comparable cultural innovations. For example, the Australians have vegemite, the Quebuecois have their hatred of the Anglo-Canadians, and the Americans their hatred of monarchies.

By ancestry, clearly Argentina during the 1750s to 2000 (let's say this is the period you're looking at as a condensed Spenglerian cycle) was predominately European. Certainly the elite classes were.
Culture, is less cut and dried, but if you look at the ideas people talk about, the books they read, the music they listen to, the architecture, etc., Argentina culture seemed to have been European in nature. An Argentinian would often travel to Spain and feel at home and a Spaniard vice-versa.

The Spenglerian decline of Argentina seems to have begun at about the same time as that of other Western societies. Spengler writing in the 1910s believed European civ was already in its Winter, no? You have others, such as Burnham, writing in the 1950s about decline as well. Do you think Spengler and Burnham would have viewed Argentina as part of European civilisation? Travelers like Darwin seemed to.
 

Bajo_cero2

Registered
Yes, the Spanish were less averse to mixing with the local population than other European peoples such as the English and the French. What is the percent admixture in that 15-20% that have African ancestry and is that Northern (e.g. Berbers) or sub-Saharan? The Boers, for example, have slight African admixture, presumable San and Zulu, but it is slight making it almost imperceptible. Do you have a link to that study?
 

Fiscal

Registered
All of the Argentinians in this little town *love* to incessantly highlight their European roots. I get having pride in your ethnic roots but to me it comes off with an air of superiority, not like an American casually mentioning their Irish or Scottish background as a neutral aside. They also like to make it clear to me that they would consider immigrating to Europe, but *never* to the U.S.
 

Tres Picos

Registered
All of the Argentinians in this little town *love* to incessantly highlight their European roots. I get having pride in your ethnic roots but to me it comes off with an air of superiority, not like an American casually mentioning their Irish or Scottish background as a neutral aside. They also like to make it clear to me that they would consider immigrating to Europe, but *never* to the U.S.
Nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage. In fact, it's healthy. Woe to the deracinated! Personally, I'm always happy when I see people in touch with their past, their traditions etc. For example, too many people wear the same damn modern clothes. I like Arabic flowing robes. But let's see if we don't all become atomized pleasure-seeking consumerists with no awareness of the past and no interest in the future.
And I agree with you, Americans of European ancestry are notable for the sense of individuality and lack of roots. But that was not always the case.
 

Tres Picos

Registered
A lot of interesting stuff there even though the samples were not randomized.

- The genetic evidence lines up extremely well with the historical record which gives hope that history is not in fact an agreed upon set of lies.
- Argentina and Brazil both have Amerindian and African ancestry but Argentina has far more of the former and much less of the latter.
- Both Argentina and Brazil get a mix of Western and Southern African ancestry which is unlike what you see in the Carribbean and North American countries.
- Argentina and Brazil both get most of their Amerindian ancestry from I guess you could say lowland tribes such as the Guarani but Argentina also gets a significant component from Andean tribes. I guess not much trace from the Fuegians :(
- Shocking how little Amerindian ancestry there is in Brazil. Suppose they were swamped demographically by the Africans.
- Not clear enough to tell from this but I would guess ratios in Argentina would be something like 59/39/2 for Europeans/Amerindian/African not including migration during the past decade or two.
 
Top