Time For Traffic Congestion Solutions

[Toastedwaves]

also, play this game the next time you walk somewhere in BA... Spot a vehicle, any of them going in the same direction as you. Count the number of times you will pass that vehicle.

I don't remember being able to do that on foot anywhere else. I walk at about 5km/h. That would imply that the trafic here is not moving much faster than that speed in some places. Although not a very scientific approach in identifying problems, that is a big indicator that something is not right with the infrastructures here.

 

[Noruega]

Alternate days for private vehicles, so-called pica y placa, is usually a failure as far as reducing congestion because it encourages people to buy another car. This happened a lot in Mexico and in Bogotá. Yes, of course not everyone can afford it but it usually just shifts the problem around. The one in Quito has been more successful for some reason. A quote from an IDB paper: "License plate restrictions have been one of the more popular policies in the region, despite the fact that shortly after the first implementation in 1986 in Santiago, it became clear that this measure had several adverse effects."

Just building more roads and more infrastructure for cars only encourages more cars on the road, so you build, and fill up the new roads, and then start again. Personally one of my favorite things about BsAs is that the middle class also uses public transport, unlike many or most Latin American cities, and this is really the only way to go with increasing number of people and finite space. Countries like Colombia are trying to show, through BRT, that "public transit is for everyone" but in none of those countries I think they will be able to stop the notion that the first thing someone does when they move into the middle class is to buy a car. So in my opinion, BsAs should revamp the trains, continue updating the metro (my subte, B, will have air condition by early next year apparently), and try to work to stop the increasing security so that public transit keeps being a good option for all, those with and those without money.

Here is a quote from the same paper: "Many countries in Latin America have opted to build large elevated highways and widen existing roadways, with the hope that this would reduce congestion in the city. However, experience shows that the opposite actually occurs. There may be short-term benefits from this type of infrastructure, but in the medium- and long-terms, it leads to increased travel demand and an increase in the number of vehicles. This effect is known as induced demand."

I am surprised by the positive review of Mexico City, I have memories of taking 2-3 hours from Santa Fe to Polanco after work! But I have heard good things about the MetroBus and the metro there.

Here is a link to the paper: Practical Guidebook: Parking and Travel Demand Management Policies in Latin America

(Full disclosure: this is where I used to work before quitting my job to ride horses in Argentina.)

 

[Joe]

Another alternative that I forgot to mention was Congestion Pricing

Would that work for Buenos Aires?

 

[Noruega]

It would be super difficult politically here! It usually does work in reducing congestion, but I would expect a lot of protests here.

 

[scotttswan]

Extend the subways all the way out to the airport, let them become light rail where available.
Build parallel lines for an express subte that skips stations until it is in the province like in New York.

Build tram like trolley bus routes using the metro bus routes that need to be extended along every avenue. Start an MOT style system which all cars have to pass. If they don't they aren't allowed on the roads.

With the extended public transport make zones and have it compulsory people scan their sube card when leaving the station.

 

[RichardP]

Even with the best transportation system in the world, it wouldn't work when there are routine strikes, blockades and such. It would likely be used as a political tool rather than to benefit the average citizen.

 

[Matiasba]

Alternate days for private vehicles, so-called pica y placa, is usually a failure as far as reducing congestion because it encourages people to buy another car. This happened a lot in Mexico and in Bogotá. Yes, of course not everyone can afford it but it usually just shifts the problem around. The one in Quito has been more successful for some reason. A quote from an IDB paper: "License plate restrictions have been one of the more popular policies in the region, despite the fact that shortly after the first implementation in 1986 in Santiago, it became clear that this measure had several adverse effects."

Just building more roads and more infrastructure for cars only encourages more cars on the road, so you build, and fill up the new roads, and then start again. Personally one of my favorite things about BsAs is that the middle class also uses public transport, unlike many or most Latin American cities, and this is really the only way to go with increasing number of people and finite space. Countries like Colombia are trying to show, through BRT, that "public transit is for everyone" but in none of those countries I think they will be able to stop the notion that the first thing someone does when they move into the middle class is to buy a car. So in my opinion, BsAs should revamp the trains, continue updating the metro (my subte, B, will have air condition by early next year apparently), and try to work to stop the increasing security so that public transit keeps being a good option for all, those with and those without money.

Here is a quote from the same paper: "Many countries in Latin America have opted to build large elevated highways and widen existing roadways, with the hope that this would reduce congestion in the city. However, experience shows that the opposite actually occurs. There may be short-term benefits from this type of infrastructure, but in the medium- and long-terms, it leads to increased travel demand and an increase in the number of vehicles. This effect is known as induced demand."

I am surprised by the positive review of Mexico City, I have memories of taking 2-3 hours from Santa Fe to Polanco after work! But I have heard good things about the MetroBus and the metro there.

Here is a link to the paper: Practical Guidebook: Parking and Travel Demand Management Policies in Latin America

(Full disclosure: this is where I used to work before quitting my job to ride horses in Argentina.)

You said lots of things true. Most people buy another car to avoid the alternance, making the problem bigger (remember talking with some friends of sundays problem when that restriction does not exist and everyone go out with their cars). It is also true that public transport is for the lower classes, the metro for example, is clearly an example on this. Faces were different, people were different. Everyone with a decent position owns a car, and they use it. The infraestructure is way better than in BsAs, I didnt go that much to Santa Fe and Polanco, I was in the south (Coyoacán) but the people I were with, did EVERYTHING by car, they went everywhere by car, to the gym, to the supermarket, to work, to the cinema, everywhere, and at any time. Thats totally imposible in BsAs, totally a crazy thing to do unless you have no problems or like traffic. BsAs is much more difficult to travel than DF, DF has more infraestructure, for example the second floor of Periferico, is way more organised, you dont have so many colectivos... here in BsAS colectivos are a mafia, they are all cooperativas, and there is a great overpopulation of them. There are lines that have the exact same road, with a difference of two blocks or so, like 64 y 68, 10 y 17, etc, different cooperatives with the same recorrido. It is very difficult to symplify that.
Here public transport has a bigger target population. Also true. Everyone uses it, is not bad seen or something, like in Mexico, except for the trains, which are a bad word (to some people). Metrobus here sucks, mainly because its for all different lines while it should be like Mexico or Bogota, one line, as if it were a train. Bogota is a model in many fields on how to manage these problems, but the trick is they dont have the same population as big cities like Mexico or BsAs.

The big difference I saw in Mexico is social segregation, like people do not wnat to get toghether with people from different classes.

 

[Noruega]

You said lots of things true. Most people buy another car to avoid the alternance, making the problem bigger (remember talking with some friends of sundays problem when that restriction does not exist and everyone go out with their cars). It is also true that public transport is for the lower classes, the metro for example, is clearly an example on this. Faces were different, people were different. Everyone with a decent position owns a car, and they use it. The infraestructure is way better than in BsAs, I didnt go that much to Santa Fe and Polanco, I was in the south (Coyoacán) but the people I were with, did EVERYTHING by car, they went everywhere by car, to the gym, to the supermarket, to work, to the cinema, everywhere, and at any time. Thats totally imposible in BsAs, totally a crazy thing to do unless you have no problems or like traffic. BsAs is much more difficult to travel than DF, DF has more infraestructure, for example the second floor of Periferico, is way more organised, you dont have so many colectivos... here in BsAS colectivos are a mafia, they are all cooperativas, and there is a great overpopulation of them. There are lines that have the exact same road, with a difference of two blocks or so, like 64 y 68, 10 y 17, etc, different cooperatives with the same recorrido. It is very difficult to symplify that.
Here public transport has a bigger target population. Also true. Everyone uses it, is not bad seen or something, like in Mexico, except for the trains, which are a bad word (to some people). Metrobus here sucks, mainly because its for all different lines while it should be like Mexico or Bogota, one line, as if it were a train. Bogota is a model in many fields on how to manage these problems, but the trick is they dont have the same population as big cities like Mexico or BsAs.

The big difference I saw in Mexico is social segregation, like people do not wnat to get toghether with people from different classes.

Yes, very interesting about the social segregation, it really is very true in Mexico. And I noticed the same thing, that those who have a car do everything by car - I couldn't live like that! While I agree with you that they have more infrastructure in DF, in my opinion they are racing to keep up with the increase in cars (which in Mexico is pretty insane - one year there were more new cars bought than babies born) but eventually there will be no more space! Yes, they have the second floor of the Periférico but eventually they will need more. This is why to me it is much more important to implement better mass transit solutions and shift ridership than to make it easy to drive. It also makes the difference between rich and poor bigger because access is difficult without a car.

You know, I used to be very pro the "real BRTs" like in Mexico and Bogota, but now that I live here, I actually like the bus system here... In places like Bogota etc. you always have to change unless you live on the "tronco", while here, I love that I can chose between many different lines that take me where I want to go! I totally agree that the colectivos are a mafia, and I am sure there are better ways to organize them, but I don't actually think it is a good idea to try to transition to a "real" BRT. Just my opinion, though! (This is probably my favorite topic to talk about jaja!)

 

[Rich One]

Elevated electric rail systems like the BART in SF. A line along 9 de Julio and over the center divider of Acceso Oeste and 25 de Mayo freeways, etc. digging tunnels is 10 times more expensive

 

[jantango]

Buenos Aires is a city for the people. Downtown streets are closed to traffic. Result: no noise or pollution. People are more important than cars!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVUYKbAEjbU